Exactly how NOT to make a multicart for the C64

[eslapion]

There is this guy in Australia selling a cart with 62 games for the C64.

The cart is not gold plated (HASL) so it's a fine cartridge port destroyer and it uses 74HC logic ICs... the guys has no clue of TTL/CMOS electrical logic levels.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1-Megabyte-62-G ... 3638655496

[Mike]

Now comes the crunch question: before writing your post here, did you at least try to contact the seller and point out to him the issues with using HASL for the edge connector and choosing HC for the logic chips (backing up your complaint about both by citing appropriate sources)?

[groepaz]

And another: How many cartridges in my collection are even (much) badder (as we say in good ol'e germany) than this, work fine, and never destroyed any c64s?

[eslapion]

I don't even know if it's worth responding to these post but it clearly shows the level of ignorance and false assumptions prevailing in the Commodore programmer community when it comes the electrical engineering of their cherished machines.

1. All Commodore 8 bit computers use technology designed for TTL level signaling. That's why a bunch of people expected TOLB - a product which signals at 0-3.3V - to fail but it works perfectly well. Anyone bothering to look a TI's table of digital logic compatibility knows you shouldn't use 74HC, 74AC, 74AHC with TTL level digital systems.

2. Well, at least, I find some agreement with the problem of the absence of gold plating

3. To Groepaz your 'badder' carts don't have gold plating on their connector ? These don't destroy C64 but they can make your cart port connector in need of a replacement.

4. Contacting sellers who do this sort of stuff... well, I did it here and we all know the result

[groepaz]

your 'badder' carts don't have gold plating on their connector ?

plain copper - it was quite common for small scale productions

but they can make your cart port connector in need of a replacement.

i have yet to see one that cant be fixed by some good cleaning - but sure, in theory there is a problem.

i like this board: https://www.ebay.de/itm/IDE-NEMO-ZX-Spe ... 3944504334

[eslapion]

your 'badder' carts don't have gold plating on their connector ?

plain copper - it was quite common for small scale productions

A lot of people confuse bare copper with low grade ENIG. Bare copper is usually rusted to green after 10 years just with the humidity in the air.

If your 'badder' carts date back to the 1980s, all their contacts would be failing by now if they were bare copper.

[MCes]

There is this guy in Australia selling a cart with 62 games for the C64.

The cart is not gold plated (HASL) so it's a fine cartridge port destroyer (...)

"HASL is dangerous for the connectors": It's never demonstrated...
The only damages that we seen in the other thread was produced, during insertions, by abrasion of fiberglass exposed on the v-cut , so the finishing of the board is irrelevant: (HASL -> damage) = superstition.
HASL could be the cure: during disconnections some molecules of tin will be deposit on the dangerous fiberglass roughness like as a lubricant PROTECTING the connectors contacts....

(...) it uses 74HC logic ICs...
the guys has no clue of TTL/CMOS electrical logic levels.

You are making confusion between VIh/l and Vth (V threshold), with C64 signals timings your afraid could be real only if the HC273 CP input is not drove by HC02 output and HC273 is connected as shift register (each FF input driven by precedent FF output), but this case appear to not be this.


EDIT:

[groepaz]

A lot of people confuse bare copper with low grade ENIG. Bare copper is usually rusted to green after 10 years just with the humidity in the air.
If your 'badder' carts date back to the 1980s, all their contacts would be failing by now if they were bare copper.

no. i am not confusing anything. lots of those equal home made boards, and its plain copper (i am sure most ARE home made basically). they might be corroded a bit over time, but a little bit of cleaning makes them work again, every single time.

[eslapion]

"HASL is dangerous for the connectors": It's never demonstrated...
The only damages that we seen in the other thread was produced, during insertions, by abrasion of fiberglass exposed on the v-cut , so the finishing of the board is irrelevant: (HASL -> damage) = superstition.
HASL could be the cure: during disconnections some molecules of tin will be deposit on the dangerous fiberglass roughness like as a lubricant PROTECTING the connectors contacts....

Find me a single VIC-20 cart, C64 cart or even ISA card sold in the 1980s by a reputable company that didn't have gold plating on their edge connector.

Only basement tinkerers do that. That's because they don't know better.

Anywas, you can discuss with Joe Palumbo why the majority of the SSV5.22 carts he sold during the last 20 years at the World of Commodore have eventually failed while old SSV4 are still working perfectly fine.

Using large and stylized typefaces doesn't make you right and it doesn't compensate for your poor English. Use google translate when you aren't sure how to say/write something, just like I do.

(...) it uses 74HC logic ICs...
the guy has no clue of TTL/CMOS electrical logic levels.

You are making confusion between VIh/l and Vth (V threshold), with C64 signals timings your afraid could be real only if the HC273 CP input is not drove by HC02 output and HC273 is connected as shift register (each FF input driven by precedent FF output), but this case appear to not be this.

Ya ya ya...

https://hackaday.com/wp-content/uploads ... -table.jpg

5V CMOS including 74HC, 74AHC and 74C are NOT compatible with TTL digital levels. Plain and simple.

Timing ??? What were you saying about my 'mumbles' ?

Awrite... time for a good valium. Ignorant and arrogant people will always defend their ignorance and refuse to learn.

P.S.: A few years ago, I asked you why there is a 74HCT74 on GandALF which is separate from the XC9572XL and you answered wrong. The correct answer is in that graphic; check Vt for TTL vs Vt for 5V CMOS. The 74HCT74 receives a signal from an op-amp - an analog signal - and it is responsible for converting it into a digital signal so what voltage it sees as 'high' and what it sees as 'low' is extremely important. This is determined exclusively by Vt.

[groepaz]

Find me a single VIC-20 cart, C64 cart or even ISA card sold in the 1980s by a reputable company that didn't have gold plating on their edge connector. Only basement tinkerers do that. That's because they don't know better.

just one? thats too easy: https://rr.pokefinder.org/rrwiki/images ... _open2.jpg

[eslapion]

Find me a single VIC-20 cart, C64 cart or even ISA card sold in the 1980s by a reputable company that didn't have gold plating on their edge connector. Only basement tinkerers do that. That's because they don't know better.

just one? thats too easy: https://rr.pokefinder.org/rrwiki/images ... _open2.jpg

I'd love to visit that page but the first thing I know, my browser is filled with a massive warning indicating this is a malicious web page.

Anyways, I was able to find that specific image through Google and what you have there IS NOT a genuine Action Replay MK3. It's a clone made by some guy and it wasn't made in the 1980s, it was made way after Commodore vanished.

Genuine Action Replay carts from Datel all used through-hole ICs. No surface mount in the real ones.

Better luck next time...

[groepaz]

my browser is filled with a massive warning indicating this is a malicious web page.

lol

what you have there IS NOT a genuine Action Replay MK3. It's a clone made by some guy and it wasn't made in the 1980s,

aha. of course >_< somehow google only finds it on that site for me, nowhere else. strange

datel: https://www.forum64.de/wcf/index.php?at ... r3top-jpg/ (same as on the wiki, strange hu)
clone: https://ftp.pokefinder.org/tmp/Action_R ... ucleus.jpg

now if your snakeoil didnt prevent you from going to the wiki, you could find numerous other examples - which are probably also all clones not made in the 80s.

[eslapion]

datel: https://www.forum64.de/wcf/index.php?at ... r3top-jpg/ (same as on the wiki, strange hu)

Access denied. You’re not authorized to view this page.

How convenient...

now if your snakeoil didnt prevent you from going to the wiki, you could find numerous other examples - which are probably also all clones not made in the 80s.

Said snakeoil is Norton Security...

Go ask Gideon why all the 1541 Ultimate carts of all versions he ever sold have gold plating. He's not some tinkerer. He has an EE degree.

Jim Brain offered a multislot cart port expander for the VIC a few years back. There was a technical issue with it but it too had a gold plated connector.

I guess these guys, just like me, like to waste money.

[groepaz]

How convenient...

oh, like claiming you found a picture that shows the same as a picture that you couldnt see - and not providing a link?

Said snakeoil is Norton Security

yes. like i said. snake oil.

Go ask Gideon why all the 1541 Ultimate carts of all versions he ever sold have gold plating. He's not some tinkerer. He has an EE degree.
Jim Brain offered a multislot cart port expander for the VIC a few years back. There was a technical issue with it but it too had a gold plated connector.
I guess these guys, just like me, like to waste money.

strawman. irrelevant.

[eslapion]

Go ask Gideon why all the 1541 Ultimate carts of all versions he ever sold have gold plating. He's not some tinkerer. He has an EE degree.
Jim Brain offered a multislot cart port expander for the VIC a few years back. There was a technical issue with it but it too had a gold plated connector.
I guess these guys, just like me, like to waste money.

strawman. irrelevant.

Sure... Jack Tramiel was one cut-throat businessman and yet every single VIC-20 and C64 cart that came out of Commodore while he was running the place had gold plating on the connector. You think he would have wasted the extra money it cost to have that ?

Every VIC-20, C64, SX-64 and PET user port, datasette port and IEEE-488 drive port were gold plated too. I'm sure it was all just for show...