The C16 - a Ferrari with no tires ?

[eslapion]

For the first time in my life, I am the proud owner of a fully functional Commodore 16. On top of that, I developed a 64k RAM expansion for it before I even got to turn it on for the first time.

Then, looking at the specs and how it works, I made 2 shocking discoveries. One great, one that really sucks.

1. It runs faster than both the VIC-20 and the C64 and it can display 121 colors at the same resolution as the C64 along with the equivalent of a Programmer's Aid built-in as well as a Super Expander for graphics built-in. This makes it almost the greatest 8 bit computer I have ever used next to the C128.

2. With 16k RAM built-in, this machine seems to have more bang than a VIC-20 but it takes 3.5k just for the system to run because some memory is required for the screen characters and colors and then it loses another 8k if you use the graphics mode leaving you with a pitiful 4.5k for programs which is only 1k more than a standard VIC-20. To make matters even worst, on the VIC-20 back in the 80s adding RAM was just a matter of going to the nearest electronics shop and buying a 3k, 8k or 16k cart, not so with the C16. Not only do VIC-20 RAM carts not work on the C16, Commodore didn't sell any and actually adding any RAM to this machine was really restricted to the most technical savvy of computer users back when it was on store shelves. That's because the built-in 16k RAM is mirrored all over the full 64k of adressable space.

No wonder this machine met with miserable sales.

Now, I just tested the prototype of SaRuMan-TED in this machine and it works great providing 60671 bytes for BASIC which is even more than you get on the C64 but I guess it comes 35 years too late.

Is there such a thing as a library of software for this old guy ?

[Noizer]

Do you want one more shock? Check the sound

[orion70]

Congratulations Eslapion for your new baby

The Commodore 16, far from being a mediocre computer, was in fact the missing opportunity for Commodore. Had they provided the 264 series with a full-blown keyboard just like the C16, but 64K RAM, and all the ports compatible with the Commodore standards of "white" series, this would have been a hit. They put out the Plus/4 instead, which was ill-fated, because of late timing and too high price for the value (the built-in software was just crap for the time, and the keyboard format was a minus).

Now, I just tested the prototype of SaRuMan-TED in this machine and it works great providing 60671 bytes for BASIC which is even more than you get on the C64 but I guess it comes 35 years too late.

Great! Waiting for a PM

Is there such a thing as a library of software for this old guy ?

You can find an excellent repository of all things 264 here: http://plus4world.powweb.com/home
Games can be sorted by genre, year, memory required, etc. Plus - pun intended - there are several utility programs, including some impressive ones for the 64K machines like SVS-Calc and others. Many programs were produced by (and for) minor markets, such as Southern and Eastern Europe.

Do you want one more shock? Check the sound

Too true . Forgot to add above: "had they provided a decent sound output"...

[eslapion]

Congratulations Eslapion for your new baby

Now, I just tested the prototype of SaRuMan-TED in this machine and it works great providing 60671 bytes for BASIC which is even more than you get on the C64 but I guess it comes 35 years too late.

Great! Waiting for a PM

The PM might wait for a while. While I can sell you a 64k RAM expansion for the C16 right now, for one thing, you wouldn't be able to disable it forcing you to use 64k permanently and you'd need to change the socket of your TED.

The socket under the TED is a miserably cheap piece of hardware, a single leaf socket with a row spacing that's 0.7mm narrower than the normal 0.6" or 15.24mm. New boards will have to be done accordingly.

[orion70]

Sorry to read that . Reading your previous posts, my illusion was to have it sooner. Well, I'll stick to the Plus/4 instead

[eslapion]

Sorry to read that . Reading your previous posts, my illusion was to have it sooner. Well, I'll stick to the Plus/4 instead

Well, I'm the kind of guy who sells responsibly. The consequence is that out of 2300 sold PLAnktons, only a small handfuls came back with problems, most of them caused by the customers either plugging them in backwards or in the SID (12V = OUCH!) socket.

If I sell products with 'limitations' then it comes with very clear, explicit caveats.

If you're willing to change the socket on your C16 and can live with a permanent 64k installed, my expansion is yours for 8 Euros. It will raise your TED by 4mm and there is no part of the board spilling on either side which could cause problems with a 8501/7501 replacement.

Added edit:
Apparently, there is no need to desolder the built-in 48 pin TED socket if you add a double-leaf socket under the RAM expansion. I have half a dozen Winslow sockets in stock os I could add-on for 0.50 Euros if so desired. This raises the TED by 8mm instead of 4mm so be careful with the heat dissipation method you choose.
Similar to: https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/e ... ND/5022052
Actual product is Winslow W3148T

[eslapion]

The correct type of pins to use for anything that's supposed to be connected to the 48 pin socket used in the C16 is much thinner than normal.

SaRuMan-TED is still under development but it looks like I'll be using this type of pins to prevent any possible damage to the socket or module: https://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDel ... ng=English

They are only 0.25mm thick, the same as those on a real DIP IC, about half the thickness used on other C16 RAM expansion.

SaRuMan-TED will be slightly larger than SaRuMan-VDC by about 3mm. It will carry exactly the same type of memory chip.

[RJBowman]

The C16/Plus4 line was a misfire. They enhanced the color capability over VIC-II chip but stripped out the sprite capability and simplified the sound capability; it was a step backward in many ways. The C16 didn't have enough memory, and the PLUS-4 had built in software that the market didn't want. If they had been backward compatible with the C-64, they might have been a hit, but instead they were the end of the line for Commodore's 8-bit series.

[eslapion]

The C16/Plus4 line was a misfire. They enhanced the color capability over VIC-II chip but stripped out the sprite capability and simplified the sound capability; it was a step backward in many ways. The C16 didn't have enough memory, and the PLUS-4 had built in software that the market didn't want. If they had been backward compatible with the C-64, they might have been a hit, but instead they were the end of the line for Commodore's 8-bit series.

Pretty much my understanding.

To make the C16 interesting, additional RAM is a must. Adding a SID is pretty easy for better sound but there's nothing you can do to implement sprites except for a new video architecture and that pretty much makes it a different computer altogether.

[orion70]

Hear, hear.. is it possible to the implement a SID in the 264 series? Didn't know that ! How?

[eslapion]

Hear, hear.. is it possible to the implement a SID in the 264 series? Didn't know that ! How?

I can easily see multiple ways but the most obvious that comes to mind is pretty much the same way as you would have more than one SID on the C64.

While the C64 has separately mapped areas in its address range, the IO1 and IO2 being the easiest to use, the C16-Plus/4 has an area named C1 which can be used to map in RAM, ROM or various communication circuits. You could even add the registers of another video chip if so desired.

The same way a cartridge for the C64 can carry extra SIDs and provide the additional filters and higher voltage, the same can be done for the C16-Plus/4 using the access line above.

Now, I don't have some 'Programmer's Reference Guide' for this line of computers to tell you in finer details how it would be accessed.

See: http://old.pinouts.ru/Motherboard/C16p4 ... nout.shtml
Pins 6 and B.

Added edit:
For the same reason, converting a C64 cartridge which adds one or more SIDs to a C64 can also easily be converted to work on a VIC-20.

[eslapion]

Hey! Why is it nobody told me about this: https://hackaday.io/project/11460-fpgated

Quite amazing!

[RobertBe]

Why is it nobody told me about this: https://hackaday.io/project/11460-fpgated

Oh, that new TED would be very nice! I just had a Plus/4 repaired by Ray Carlsen, and he had to replace the TED chip with the last one he had in stock.

Truly,
Robert Bernardo
Fresno Commodore User Group
http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm

[Victragic]

Old post, but congrats. I have a lot of time for those TED machines, even though my Plus/4 died many many moons ago.

A C16 is probably similar to a Vic + 8k with Super Expander, Programmer's Aid, VicMon, Basic 4.0 and 40 column card all in one. It was quite the upgrade from a Vic.

The extra colours - well, many of the luminences are dark and muddy, truth be known. The sound is high and 'tinny', not as warm as the Vic. But at least on my screens, the picture quality ran rings around the Vic and 64 - less border, and less 'noise'.

As well, BASIC 3.5 runs slower than BASIC 2 on the VIC (and 64), despite the faster processor. Still, the HEX$ and DEC() functions are really nice and I still sometimes run VICE in 264 mode if I want to code something simple.

I'd place it slightly behind the C128 and BBC Master for 8-bit machines that are a joy to use (for purposes other than for games)

[eslapion]

The sound is high and 'tinny', not as warm as the Vic.

Yeah, that part sucks.