Possible to copy Vic-20 games to diskette and C-cassette on a c64 with the 1541 Ultimate II+?

[Mozartkügel]

Hi guys, does anyone know if it's possible to copy vic-20 games to diskette and C-cassette on a c64 with the 1541 Ultimate II+? I have the tape adapter and I have transfered c64 games to cassette already. I was just thinking if there's some incompabilities somehow. Thankful for any help!

[eslapion]

Hi guys, does anyone know if it's possible to copy vic-20 games to diskette and C-cassette on a c64 with the 1541 Ultimate II+? I have the tape adapter and I have transfered c64 games to cassette already. I was just thinking if there's some incompabilities somehow. Thankful for any help!

This is the question with absolutely no answer because it is way to broad.

What exactly do you want to copy ?

VIC-20 games can be in BASIC, they can be in ML, they can be cartridge images. They may or may not have copy protection. They can come from diskettes or tapes. To add to this wide variety of possibilities, they can be for the unexpanded VIC-20 or require a specific amount of RAM expansion, a variable which simply doesn't generally exist on the C64.

All these can determine if it is possible or not to copy what you want to copy and how to do it.

I can easily think of dozens of things for the VIC-20 I could copy using the 1541 Ultimate I/II/II+ from tape or disk onto images stored on the SD card or USB key of a 1541 U 1/2/2+ and then use these images with VICE on a PC. What to do to complete the process can vary greatly.

[Mozartkügel]

Hi, yes you're right, I didn't think this completely through. I'm kind of exploring my options before buying a real Vic-20, of which I have quite little experience. I like emulators, but I want to experience a real VIC-20. I didn't really take into account that I'd want/need a RAM expander. I was kind of thinking if I could get away with my U2+ and copy games over to cassette and disk, but actually I want to try out bigger games than only the 3k ones.

Perhaps I will go for the penultimate cart later when I have the money for it. I read that you can use the U2+ plugged into a c64 and the serial cable into the Vic-20, but then you'd need two monitors. Or just the U2+ in stand alone mode as a disk drive for the vic (but I haven't looked into how that mode works). I thought the easiest way would've been to just download some Vic-20 games and put them onto cassette or disk with the help of the U2+ (if that works) and then used a real disk drive and/or datasette with the Vic-20, plus now taking into account the RAM needed for the specific games.

[Dynamic_Computing]

Get an SD2IEC and you can copy VIC-20 problems all day long. If you have a real 1541 you can copy them right to that, too. The same SD2IEC can then just connect right up to your C64 and use the same SD card. Marvelous device.

[mrr19121970]

The short answer is yes. Assuming your 1541U2+ is sticking in a C64 and getting power, then you can connect both IEC and C2C cables in your VIC20 and have them load games. The only drawback is you need to have 2 computers and swap screens to get to the 1541U2+ GUI

[Mozartkügel]

Thanks for the info guys! A SD2IEC would actually be a reasonably priced good idea!

The short answer is yes. Assuming your 1541U2+ is sticking in a C64 and getting power, then you can connect both IEC and C2C cables in your VIC20 and have them load games. The only drawback is you need to have 2 computers and swap screens to get to the 1541U2+ GUI

Hey, thanks for the short answer! It seems I'll probably be fine with the U2+ for starters unless I really start moving files over on a 'daily basis'!

[eslapion]

The short answer is yes. Assuming your 1541U2+ is sticking in a C64 and getting power, then you can connect both IEC and C2C cables in your VIC20 and have them load games. The only drawback is you need to have 2 computers and swap screens to get to the 1541U2+ GUI

Maybe I am missing something but it is my understanding Mozartkügel simply wants to use his 1541 U2+ to copy VIC-20 files or data between Commodore devices and a PC, not necessarily use it as a device attached to the VIC-20.

That's a lot easier to do than having both the C64 and VIC-20 turned on and attached together.

@Mozartkügel
Please tell us exactly what you have in mind and I'll do my best to tell you what are the steps involved.

I can tell you I used my own 1541 Ultimate I+ to copy all my VIC-20 cartridge images from actual 1541 floppies to images I have now in my PC. I didn't need to connect the VIC-20 at all.

Copying these files, although they are used by the VIC-20, on a 1541 formatted floppy they are files just like any other files to all good C64 file copiers and I used the 1541U Super Snapshot V5.22 emulation to copy them from a real 1541 to images stored on SD cards. Then popped the SD card on a PC. No need to buy an extra SD2IEC, no need to have both the C64 and VIC-20 connected together either.

[Mozartkügel]

Thanks eslapion, my exact scenarios would simply be:

1. Add prg's and .d64 with vic-20 games to U2+ usb stick -> Copy those games to real floppy disks with the help of my c64, U2+ and 1541 II floppy drive -> play those games on a real vic-20, loading the games from my real 1541 II floppy drive (taking into account the games memory requirements).

2. Add vic-20 tap file to U2+ usb stick -> Copy those games to real cassette with the help of my c64, U2+, tape adapter and datasette -> play those games on a real vic-20, loading the games from my real datasette (taking into account the games memory requirements)..

From what I gather from this thread that shouldn't be an issue. I guess for example the floppy format and prg binary is the exact same on both c64 and vic-20, so it doesn't matter which computer writes the games to disk or tape, both should still be able to read the files. I realise now that I might have caused confusion earlier by writing disk instead of floppy in many places. Actually I also realised now I could try it on emulators!

[orion70]

Why don't you just use a 1541 to USB cable such as a xum_1541 or such, and CBM transfer with or without a graphic frontend? I am currently using such a setup, and happily create disks from d64 images, and/or slap prg files on them. If you have sd2iec, this is perfectly useless unless you have demos to play (some are not compatible with the sd2iec device), but using only the real drive adds to the retro experience, and it's FUN .
Also, you don't have to unbox that c64 sitting on the armchair..

[eslapion]

1. Add prg's and .d64 with vic-20 games to U2+ usb stick -> Copy those games to real floppy disks with the help of my c64, U2+ and 1541 II floppy drive -> play those games on a real vic-20, loading the games from my real 1541 II floppy drive (taking into account the games memory requirements).

In this case, the question becomes more or less 'can a C64 copy VIC-20 files' and the answer is absolutely yes. However, once on a 1541 floppy, the files and disk images you want to use still have exactly the same requirements. i.e. a game designed to play on a VIC-20 with 3k expansion still requires a 3k expansion and a game designed for a VIC-20 with 24k expansion still requires 24k expansion.

You can use DirMaster on a PC to put the .PRG files you want to use onto .D64 images you create. Just put those newly created images on your USB stick then use a standard file/disk copier on the C64 side to copy them onto actual 1541 disks. Et voilà!

2. Add vic-20 tap file to U2+ usb stick -> Copy those games to real cassette with the help of my c64, U2+, tape adapter and datasette -> play those games on a real vic-20, loading the games from my real datasette (taking into account the games memory requirements)..

This, I wouldn't know how to do exactly but since a .tap file is content independent, the procedure would be the same as putting C64 software contained in .TAP files onto a tape.

DirMaster on the PC can also be used to inspect or manage .TAP files.

From what I gather from this thread that shouldn't be an issue. I guess for example the floppy format and prg binary is the exact same on both c64 and vic-20, so it doesn't matter which computer writes the games to disk or tape, both should still be able to read the files. I realise now that I might have caused confusion earlier by writing disk instead of floppy in many places. Actually I also realised now I could try it on emulators!

That's not entirely true.

A C64 can't have RAM expansions directly usable by BASIC like the VIC-20 does and so, the usual LOAD address for a .PRG file is almost always exactly the same for all C64 programs.

On the VIC-20, a program designed for use with 3k expansion, or no expansion or 8K or more expansion will all have a different LOAD address embedded into them and this address may or may not be critical to proper functioning of a program, especially those that are either fully in BASIC or a mixture of BASIC and ML.

You can't simply LOAD a program in the C64's memory, then save it to disk or tape and expect it to work properly on a VIC-20. If you use a file copier instead (copying from a .D64 image in your 1541 U2+ to an actual 1541 disk drive) then the file copier will maintain the .PRG LOAD address intact.

Why don't you just use a 1541 to USB cable such as a xum_1541 or such, and CBM transfer with or without a graphic frontend? I am currently using such a setup, and happily create disks from d64 images, and/or slap prg files on them. If you have sd2iec, this is perfectly useless unless you have demos to play (some are not compatible with the sd2iec device), but using only the real drive adds to the retro experience, and it's FUN .
Also, you don't have to unbox that c64 sitting on the armchair..

I believe the OP indicated this is exactly what he doesn't want to do...

[orion70]

Where? And possibly why? Anyway, OOPS . I'll shut up.

[Mozartkügel]

Thanks so much eslapion for the extensive info, this is exactly what I needed! And thanks to everyone, I appreciate how helpful and kind everyone has been here to the vic20 noob!

[eslapion]

Where? And possibly why? Anyway, OOPS . I'll shut up.

Well...

.. I was kind of thinking if I could get away with my U2+ and copy games over to cassette and disk...

The thinking was actually kind of perfectly right...

[orion70]

Okay with me - he will miss a fun way to do it...

[eslapion]

Okay with me - he will miss a fun way to do it...

I have the first 1541 Ultimate cart and it goes pretty smoothly to copy VIC-20 stuff from PC to actual 1541 floppies. To me, it's easier because in the mid 2000s, I archived all my VIC-20 floppies to PC using Star Commander and so I have a bunch of .D64. With the 1541U, I just copy these back to a 1541 drive.

The SD2IEC manages them as a bunch of .PRG files instead of disk images.