Denial

Haven't tried but I guess spraying the port and a cart with switch cleaner and then inserting a few times would also work..

groepaz wrote:if you are scared of sandpaper and think it will damage your sanity... just use a piece of thick cardboard. takes longer, works the same. no big deal whatsoever. you could even wrap a piece of cotton around it and soak it in IPA. (using a tootbrush like someone else suggested would also work well, however that will probably require to remove the board from the case)

It has been pointed out that standard ENIG (2-3 uin) will get damaged by the simple insertion and extraction of the board. The datasheet I previously mentioned indicates the gold plating in all R644 receptacles is 10uin thick so sandpaper is definitely to be avoided.

A piece of cardboard of the right shape is probably a good idea, it will make the removed dissolved dirt absorb inside of it instead of spreading all over. IPA can be isopropyl alcohol or India Pale Ale. The first one is good for cleaning many things, the second one you can drink. Doing the opposite can be unhealthy and mess up your cart port connector...

I suppose you could do both with a good vodka.

Haven't tried but I guess spraying the port and a cart with switch cleaner and then inserting a few times would also work.

those magic cleaner solutions are almost always a bad idea (if used like this) - they will dissolve the oxide perhaps.... but then you will rub and spread it all over the contacts, and when it dries, the situation is possibly worse than before. IF you use stuff like that, ALWAYS use something like IPA afterwards to wash out the residue.

(if someone suggests you to use WD40 for this - dont hesitate with throwing heavy objects =P)

groepaz wrote:

Haven't tried but I guess spraying the port and a cart with switch cleaner and then inserting a few times would also work.

those magic cleaner solutions are almost always a bad idea (if used like this) - they will dissolve the oxide perhaps.... but then you will rub and spread it all over the contacts, and when it dries, the situation is possibly worse than before.

Yeah. Some of them contain acetone and I've heard stories of people trying to clean their Zorro II connectors in Amiga 2000 computers with the product catching fire when it came in contact with a leaking clock battery.

Acetone can damage polystyrene and that's what Commodore VIC-20 and C64 keyboards and cases are made with.

eslapion wrote:Acetone can damage polystyrene and that's what Commodore VIC-20 and C64 keyboards and cases are made with.

you mean Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS) to be exact

norm8332 wrote:

eslapion wrote:Acetone can damage polystyrene and that's what Commodore VIC-20 and C64 keyboards and cases are made with.

you mean Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS) to be exact

Not 100% sure about this one but I do believe the VIC-20/C64 cases are : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystyre ... olystyrene

Whereas you refer to : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonit ... ne_styrene

Lego bricks are ABS and they flex considerably more before breaking than VIC/C64 cases. Anyways, my experience with the closing tabs breaking too often and too easily.

My 25 years old IBM PS/2 keyboard is definitely made of metal and ABS. It's as good for typing as it is for discouraging a burglar.

Its ABS for sure. It's just a bit brittle because of age degradation. Also it may have a formula that contains less butadiene which is the rubbery compound in ABS that makes it tough. The formula can vary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonit ... ne_styrene If it was pure polystyrene a lot more would be breaking besides the super thin keyboard tabs. Notice that later Commodore fixed their design flaw by using full-width tabs instead of the flimsy dual tabs design.

In my quest to repair several broken cases using parts from 3d printing I previously performed a few tests. First, a burn test http://www.boedeker.com/burntest.htm then a melt test to see if it was ABS as I suspected. ABS is amorphous which means it doesn't melt into a liquid but into a paste up until 400c when it separates. Polystyrene will melt into a liquid. During testing it was noted that the plastic used in the Commodore cases is amorphous. So with the burn test and the melt test it passes for ABS. It also readily accepts ABS glue (ABS dissolved in acetone).

@norm8332
I'm not about to burn a C64 case to know for sure (or even a part of it) but it sure feels a lot more like a thicker plastic car model than a lego brick.

I tried grating a bit of C64 and adding acetone to make a paste to repair a hole. It didn't work. The gratings stayed gratings and the acetone went abit yellow.

Hasl, gold, hard gold.
Nothing of this are perfect...

For example in military/professional board (but also on the board inside your PC) the fingers of edge connections are not Hasl, because is needed to prevent false contact for oxidation, but this kind of connector are "not-movible": you connect it at starting life of the devices, and it remain fix for the life....
I never seen, in professional equipment, edge connectors used for movible connections! ( movible: hundreds of insertion during product-life)

For example a movible connections done with HARD GOLD could be dangerous: the hardest surface scratch the softest surface, so the hard gold pcb could scratch the metal part of connection inside the VIC20 connector...... do you want this?

If an HASL-finger could be oxidate it will be sufficient the normal insertion into connector to "scratch" the oxide into the point of contact.... the mobility of cart become the key to eliminate the false contact problem...

eslaption has a own IDEA on this, no more...
everybody can have an idea, but the "scientific method" need proof....
(link of somebody that ask himself the same question is not a proof, link at pages of who have market on this is not a proof, another point of view yes but not a proof)

I asked the names of the people that had own VIC20 damaged from cartridges HASL finisched, if I remember well I didn't get this list....

I have an original Commodore 64 "Avenger" cartridges that is HASL finisched: Who I am, to feel me in error using HASL if Commodore done the same?

MCes wrote:For example a movible connections done with HARD GOLD could be dangerous: the hardest surface scratch the softest surface, so the hard gold pcb could scratch the metal part of connection inside the VIC20 connector...... do you want this?

That is specifically why the R644-3F connector receptacles used in the VIC-20 have gold plated contacts. I posted the datasheet in a previous post.

http://nebula.wsimg.com/60fad43f053ede6 ... oworigin=1

eslaption has a own IDEA on this, no more...

Mike says I am undiplomatic but he concurs with me on this one. He is actually much more qualified than me.

mrr19121970 is also very competent and he's the one who posted the first on this issue.

everybody can have an idea, but the "scientific method" need proof....
(link of somebody that ask himself the same question is not a proof, link at pages of who have market on this is not a proof, another point of view yes but not a proof)

I suggest you read Mike's post on this.

http://sleepingelephant.com/ipw-web/bul ... 4&start=24

I was never involved in the making of this excellent article: https://db-electronics.ca/2017/05/31/su ... ion-carts/

I don't even know the author so it's definitely NOT 'my idea'...

I have an original Commodore 64 "Avenger" cartridges that is HASL finisched: Who I am, to feel me in error using HASL if Commodore done the same?

I have NEVER seen a single Commodore made C64 or VIC-20 cartridge using something other than hard gold plating on its edge connector so I suggest you post a photo.

Avenger for the C64 uses the same PCB as most other cartridge based games and utilities made by Commodore for the C64. I happen to have Super Expander for the C64 here (same PCB part no.) and it's hard gold plated. Yes, I know Magic Desk is a different PCB but I have one too and it too is gold plated.

Added edit:
Board 326173-01 shown here...

eslapion wrote:@norm8332
I'm not about to burn a C64 case to know for sure (or even a part of it) but it sure feels a lot more like a thicker plastic car model than a lego brick.

These people agree with me and they are actually using C64 plastic to produce an item where you have to know what the material is to properly injection mold it. https://www.thefuturewas8bit.com/sd2iec-rc64.html

FWIW, I checked all my carts and found the following manufacturers used HASL:

Sega
UMI
Creative Software
Sirius
OEM
Machine Language Games

There may be more, my collection is far from complete.

norm8332 wrote:FWIW, I checked all my carts and found the following manufacturers used HASL:

Sega
UMI
Creative Software
Sirius
OEM
Machine Language Games

There may be more, my collection is far from complete.

As I said in a previous post, I have 2 creative carts here. The contact tabs look silverish but it's absolutely not HASL. Same with my sole Sirius cart 'Type Attack'. I suspect they are silver plated.

When HASL comes in contact with a receptacle connector even the very first time, it scrapes the metal immediately. Both of my Creative Software carts contacts look almost like new and 'In The Chips' was definitely used hundreds of times. Same with 'Type Attack'.

This photo is from the article in Mike's post, this is what HASL really does:


larger image

I also have Star Trek:SOS from Sega and it too has silver looking contact tabs but even after hundreds of insertion and removal, it show very little wear. This can't be HASL.

Congo Bongo is different and has gold plating.

If it were silver you think it would be tarnished by now?