Tips on moving to Linux?
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
Defining a game changer depends on the nature of the game.
Aren't you are comparing 2 different games here: home computing and server architecture?
The Raspberry Pi has restarted interest in home computing and electronics. It is the Vic20 of the 21st century, low cost, accessible, versatile.
I don't foresee anybody at home will buy a Moonshot to tinker with, therefore the Moonshot will not kickstart the next generation of programmers and inventors, it may change the power consumption in server farms and make large corporations providing Cloud more profitable.
p.s. have a look at the new OS coming out - Maynard - using 8/16 bit sprite technology - reminds me a bit of the Archimedes or Amiga
http://www.raspberrypi.org/preview-the- ... d-desktop/
Aren't you are comparing 2 different games here: home computing and server architecture?
The Raspberry Pi has restarted interest in home computing and electronics. It is the Vic20 of the 21st century, low cost, accessible, versatile.
I don't foresee anybody at home will buy a Moonshot to tinker with, therefore the Moonshot will not kickstart the next generation of programmers and inventors, it may change the power consumption in server farms and make large corporations providing Cloud more profitable.
p.s. have a look at the new OS coming out - Maynard - using 8/16 bit sprite technology - reminds me a bit of the Archimedes or Amiga
http://www.raspberrypi.org/preview-the- ... d-desktop/
Vic20-Ian
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
Just looked up the Raspberry Pi. I assumed it was one of those expensive gadgets I would never be able to afford, but £60 for a complete kit is surprisingly cheap.
I think it has more in common with the ZX-81 than the VIC; especially when you think about the low-cost self-assembly and the UK-centric fan-base.
I think it has more in common with the ZX-81 than the VIC; especially when you think about the low-cost self-assembly and the UK-centric fan-base.
Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
Yes for $35 a Pentium 2 equivalent Linux PC with Ethernet and HDMI & Composite Video output that runs off a micro usb phone charger and has GPIO pins for wiring up hardware projects.
Runs C, Python and other languages. Plays Quake 3 and emulates older arcade machines.
Small format and able to be powered by battery.
The only self assembly is to plug in a powered hub, connect keyboard, mouse and wifi dongle and TV and optionally put it in a small plastic case or make one from Lego. If you don't by a kit like the one from Maplin then you need to make an SD card image.
Optional extras 5MP camera in standard or Infra Red capable for HD capture including timelapse.
I am looking into using one as a dedicated VPN server for my home network for £35-40
I am also playing with Open Elec distribution which runs a <20 booting minimal Linux distribution with XBMC for Video streaming, music, Live and Internet TV - In theory I can do the equivalent or more than a smart TV box and PVR but open source and customisable. If this works out I will stop using my PS3 to do only part of what XBMC can do.
Some of the projects people are making are amazing and of community benefit e.g. In India someone has developed a low cost portable Braille tutor.
Accessibility is high from a cost perspective but has some limitations from the Linux OS friendliness perspective (to bring this back towards this thread's original purpose.)
As a way of moving to Linux with low cost and risk it is an interesting approach that is engaging folks to use Linux and programming and engage at a hardware level.
As it has colour and full X desktop I likened it more to the Vic-20 than the ZX81 (Timex 1000 in USA).
http://www.raspberrypi.org/
Runs C, Python and other languages. Plays Quake 3 and emulates older arcade machines.
Small format and able to be powered by battery.
The only self assembly is to plug in a powered hub, connect keyboard, mouse and wifi dongle and TV and optionally put it in a small plastic case or make one from Lego. If you don't by a kit like the one from Maplin then you need to make an SD card image.
Optional extras 5MP camera in standard or Infra Red capable for HD capture including timelapse.
I am looking into using one as a dedicated VPN server for my home network for £35-40
I am also playing with Open Elec distribution which runs a <20 booting minimal Linux distribution with XBMC for Video streaming, music, Live and Internet TV - In theory I can do the equivalent or more than a smart TV box and PVR but open source and customisable. If this works out I will stop using my PS3 to do only part of what XBMC can do.
Some of the projects people are making are amazing and of community benefit e.g. In India someone has developed a low cost portable Braille tutor.
Accessibility is high from a cost perspective but has some limitations from the Linux OS friendliness perspective (to bring this back towards this thread's original purpose.)
As a way of moving to Linux with low cost and risk it is an interesting approach that is engaging folks to use Linux and programming and engage at a hardware level.
As it has colour and full X desktop I likened it more to the Vic-20 than the ZX81 (Timex 1000 in USA).
http://www.raspberrypi.org/
Vic20-Ian
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
Not in dispute where the Pi sits -- it's a VIC 20. Did VIC 20 start interest in home computing and electronics? Something prior? Or the vaunted C64 after it? VIC 20 was a game changer for me, personally, but I'm not an elitist that is putting it out there in front of the pack either.Vic20-Ian wrote:The Raspberry Pi has restarted interest in home computing and electronics. It is the Vic20 of the 21st century, low cost, accessible, versatile.
My commentary that followed yours in regards to a powerful little machine. Again, not in dispute. But there's a lot of "little" machines out there that are even more powerful, specifically Atom and ARM. That's why Pi will be what it was intended for, and really not for much else. Why is that being construed as a bad thing? I'm not going to make it out into something more it is not, which is why I will direct those (newbies) on this thread that have low-powered machines (old or new) looking to use Linux towards Intel (easy), then ARM. I applaud the adventurous using Pi Linux -- I'm not that energetic anymore.
And it's still not a foreign versus domestic thing either. But it is all about the distro.
Enjoy!
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
https://robert.hurst-ri.us/rob/retrocomputing
https://robert.hurst-ri.us/rob/retrocomputing
Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
The Vic was not the best machine available at the time but for me it was the most approachable colour, real keyboard computer and as close to the Pet at school as home computing could get. The C64 was much more expensive - the sort of thing my uncle with 2 girls and no boys bought
I have since been through a phase of collecting hundreds of the 80s machines and of letting them all go again except for a few Vic's, a C64, a Plus/4 and an A600HD. However, only the Vic gets used. Maybe the interest in the Pi is the little engine that could syndrome like the Vic
Back to the thread...tips on moving to Linux...
Raspbian is a Debian based distro - is that a bad thing? If so why?
Please could you expand some thoughts about why one distro is better than another.
Someone stated earlier that what I was trying to do was already difficult (because of the Pi? or the distro?)
Getting that program running in console with GPM was relatively easy once I knew that GPM referenced from some other distribution could be installed and would do what I intended.
Is this experience with Linux on a Pi somehow going to be different on an Intel or Arm machine?
If so please could you explain why? Apart from a slower speed processor and 512k RAM what else limits the experience of Linux or makes it more difficult?
What are the Atom and Arm small powerful machines (Link please) and how much are they?
Thanks.
I have since been through a phase of collecting hundreds of the 80s machines and of letting them all go again except for a few Vic's, a C64, a Plus/4 and an A600HD. However, only the Vic gets used. Maybe the interest in the Pi is the little engine that could syndrome like the Vic
Back to the thread...tips on moving to Linux...
What is it about the distro?But it is all about the distro.
Raspbian is a Debian based distro - is that a bad thing? If so why?
Please could you expand some thoughts about why one distro is better than another.
Someone stated earlier that what I was trying to do was already difficult (because of the Pi? or the distro?)
Getting that program running in console with GPM was relatively easy once I knew that GPM referenced from some other distribution could be installed and would do what I intended.
Is this experience with Linux on a Pi somehow going to be different on an Intel or Arm machine?
If so please could you explain why? Apart from a slower speed processor and 512k RAM what else limits the experience of Linux or makes it more difficult?
What are the Atom and Arm small powerful machines (Link please) and how much are they?
Thanks.
Vic20-Ian
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
Ok, I sense you are being disingenuous. Let's just scrape the text off of Raspbian:
Of those 35,000 "Raspbian" packages (since you are branding here), how many do you have installed? How many of those packages are made solely for Pi? How does Gimp run? How does Blender run? How does FS-UAE, mentioned on this thread, run? I've got CHDs for MAME, how do they run? I want to run a LAMP solution, like Wordpress for a personal web site/blogging, will Pi work for me?
You're using it to learn scripting languages, wonderful. How does Pi lend itself toward running or learning Python, Perl, Ruby any better? What about Java and .NET? When you are done learning and create the next-best-thing, is Pi the target machine for everyone else to run it?
It is evident that my answers for you are in my questions.
First, love the "pure" reference here, was that your deciding factor? Does this distro work for you? Was it friendly? If it was, then was I helpful in pointing you to your little demo project solution after your fussing about how un-friendly Linux (oh, and not Pi) is? Did you use Raspbian forum for any help, and if you did, did you get any? Did you ever try to install Linux yourself, even it that means it is impure, without a distro? How did that work out for you?Raspbian provides more than a pure OS: it comes with over 35,000 packages, pre-compiled software bundled in a nice format for easy installation on your Raspberry Pi.
Of those 35,000 "Raspbian" packages (since you are branding here), how many do you have installed? How many of those packages are made solely for Pi? How does Gimp run? How does Blender run? How does FS-UAE, mentioned on this thread, run? I've got CHDs for MAME, how do they run? I want to run a LAMP solution, like Wordpress for a personal web site/blogging, will Pi work for me?
You're using it to learn scripting languages, wonderful. How does Pi lend itself toward running or learning Python, Perl, Ruby any better? What about Java and .NET? When you are done learning and create the next-best-thing, is Pi the target machine for everyone else to run it?
It is evident that my answers for you are in my questions.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
https://robert.hurst-ri.us/rob/retrocomputing
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
this thread reminds me a lot of those people who start programming C using cc65 and then draw the conclusion that C is shit =)
I'm just a Software Guy who has no Idea how the Hardware works. Don't listen to me.
Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
Robert - I apologise if I annoyed you somehow, this was not my intent.
I wasn't being disingenuous, still genuinely curious about the multiple change the distro comments - I don't understand this more than some distros might have a more specific purpose e.g. open elec for a Media Box, Raspbian for Pi hardware and some distros might have better or friendlier support.
I chose the Pi (one of 2 variants of hardware) and installed Raspbian to avoid the problems I have had running Linux on PCs in the past where some hardware is not supported. i.e. to avoid the first hurdle of it won't run properly out of the box. It was easy to install and gave a choice of alternative distros on the NOOBS image this time round including a non Linux Archimedes OS. Easier than 12 months ago when we first had a go.
The Raspbian Distro works ok. It is friendlier than some I have tried in the past with Grub and Lilo configuration and other package managers (RPG?). The keyboard config choice was probably the most daunting bit - too many choices.
Your answer about mouse support helped though was a little obscure to lend much confidence immediately but has in the end. I feel I was 80% of the way there with my diagnosis and needed a little help with the translation of dos experience to Linux. Your answer about console not being used much enabled me to make the jump away from the instructions given for the demo to run it under X Windows. I am used to Dos apps that were run under Dos and Windows apps that ran in Windows and I did not appreciate the higher degree of commonality there seems to be in Linux (a good thing about Linux I learned). I then verified the GPM install would solve the problem we experienced following the instructions. I did try searching the forum for Raspbian and google for the answer and found the GPM reference elsewhere. I plan to go back to the forum and register to post the GPM solution.
Did you ever try to install Linux yourself - only Suse, Mint, Ubuntu I think on a PC dual boot or Live CD - had some hardware issues and package dependency issues that I did not spend time to hunt down so I reverted to Windows. I have never tried a non distro install and don't fully understand yet why I would need to yet. I did read about building up a bare metal OS which was interesting but too low level to be really useful.
Of those 35,000 "Raspbian" packages (since you are branding here), how many do you have installed? I haven't counted - this text was from the website blurb not intended as a point to annoy.
How many of those packages are made solely for Pi? I would guess very few are solely for Pi but that they are recompiled or tested for the Pi.
How does Gimp run? How does Blender run? - not tried them but I would guess slowly due to the low power processor not the distro. I read that Gimp runs slowly when drawing with the mouse? is it too bloated for 512Kb P2 equivalent to run? Painting with the mouse should be well within the capability of Pi as it can play video on a rotating teapot. I will try it and let you know. Blender will struggle with more than mesh I expect. Maybe as slow as when I tried POV raytracing on my 486sx20.
How does FS-UAE, mentioned on this thread, run? I read it needed changes to compile under Arm but other Amiga emus like EUAE have been seen running Amiga Lemmings ok on You Tube.
I've got CHDs for MAME, how do they run? I would guess as slowly as they would on a Pentium II - not really relevant to me as I don't play many games post R-Type except maybe Goldeneye now and again As those CHD games generally correlate with later games the processor emulation would be a bottleneck as well as accessing the CHD. If you have an early processor suggestion I will take a look sometime. I have seen the Pi run Snes and PSX.
I want to run a LAMP solution, like Wordpress for a personal web site/blogging, will Pi work for me? Yes it does - see here over 99% uptime. http://www.dingleberrypi.com/
You're using it to learn scripting languages, wonderful. For me more about getting comfortable with Linux despite no pressing need to do so. Also for my sons some Scratch and Python to start with.
How does Pi lend itself toward running or learning Python, Perl, Ruby any better? What about Java and .NET? All these have been run on the Raspberry Pi - some are there already like C and C++. Ruby was reported to be fast enough to learn on. .Net Micro framework has been experimented on, not sure if it is fully working.
When you are done learning and create the next-best-thing, is Pi the target machine for everyone else to run it? For the low cost dedicated low power projects we might build I would say yes Pi would be the most likely platform to replicate. e.g. a time lapse camera we can place in the garden and log into with SSH to get the photos is interesting. Arduino might be an alternative but I have not looked into these yet. The school may be using a different kit to Pi and Arduino for the design and technology course my son will take in September.
Most of the above points relate to processing power issues and the Pi as a platform rather than distro choice and I did not get further with my understanding in this regard. I am still keen to hear a bit more about this if you don't mind expanding.
Thanks.
Ian
I wasn't being disingenuous, still genuinely curious about the multiple change the distro comments - I don't understand this more than some distros might have a more specific purpose e.g. open elec for a Media Box, Raspbian for Pi hardware and some distros might have better or friendlier support.
I chose the Pi (one of 2 variants of hardware) and installed Raspbian to avoid the problems I have had running Linux on PCs in the past where some hardware is not supported. i.e. to avoid the first hurdle of it won't run properly out of the box. It was easy to install and gave a choice of alternative distros on the NOOBS image this time round including a non Linux Archimedes OS. Easier than 12 months ago when we first had a go.
The Raspbian Distro works ok. It is friendlier than some I have tried in the past with Grub and Lilo configuration and other package managers (RPG?). The keyboard config choice was probably the most daunting bit - too many choices.
Your answer about mouse support helped though was a little obscure to lend much confidence immediately but has in the end. I feel I was 80% of the way there with my diagnosis and needed a little help with the translation of dos experience to Linux. Your answer about console not being used much enabled me to make the jump away from the instructions given for the demo to run it under X Windows. I am used to Dos apps that were run under Dos and Windows apps that ran in Windows and I did not appreciate the higher degree of commonality there seems to be in Linux (a good thing about Linux I learned). I then verified the GPM install would solve the problem we experienced following the instructions. I did try searching the forum for Raspbian and google for the answer and found the GPM reference elsewhere. I plan to go back to the forum and register to post the GPM solution.
Did you ever try to install Linux yourself - only Suse, Mint, Ubuntu I think on a PC dual boot or Live CD - had some hardware issues and package dependency issues that I did not spend time to hunt down so I reverted to Windows. I have never tried a non distro install and don't fully understand yet why I would need to yet. I did read about building up a bare metal OS which was interesting but too low level to be really useful.
Of those 35,000 "Raspbian" packages (since you are branding here), how many do you have installed? I haven't counted - this text was from the website blurb not intended as a point to annoy.
How many of those packages are made solely for Pi? I would guess very few are solely for Pi but that they are recompiled or tested for the Pi.
How does Gimp run? How does Blender run? - not tried them but I would guess slowly due to the low power processor not the distro. I read that Gimp runs slowly when drawing with the mouse? is it too bloated for 512Kb P2 equivalent to run? Painting with the mouse should be well within the capability of Pi as it can play video on a rotating teapot. I will try it and let you know. Blender will struggle with more than mesh I expect. Maybe as slow as when I tried POV raytracing on my 486sx20.
How does FS-UAE, mentioned on this thread, run? I read it needed changes to compile under Arm but other Amiga emus like EUAE have been seen running Amiga Lemmings ok on You Tube.
I've got CHDs for MAME, how do they run? I would guess as slowly as they would on a Pentium II - not really relevant to me as I don't play many games post R-Type except maybe Goldeneye now and again As those CHD games generally correlate with later games the processor emulation would be a bottleneck as well as accessing the CHD. If you have an early processor suggestion I will take a look sometime. I have seen the Pi run Snes and PSX.
I want to run a LAMP solution, like Wordpress for a personal web site/blogging, will Pi work for me? Yes it does - see here over 99% uptime. http://www.dingleberrypi.com/
You're using it to learn scripting languages, wonderful. For me more about getting comfortable with Linux despite no pressing need to do so. Also for my sons some Scratch and Python to start with.
How does Pi lend itself toward running or learning Python, Perl, Ruby any better? What about Java and .NET? All these have been run on the Raspberry Pi - some are there already like C and C++. Ruby was reported to be fast enough to learn on. .Net Micro framework has been experimented on, not sure if it is fully working.
When you are done learning and create the next-best-thing, is Pi the target machine for everyone else to run it? For the low cost dedicated low power projects we might build I would say yes Pi would be the most likely platform to replicate. e.g. a time lapse camera we can place in the garden and log into with SSH to get the photos is interesting. Arduino might be an alternative but I have not looked into these yet. The school may be using a different kit to Pi and Arduino for the design and technology course my son will take in September.
Most of the above points relate to processing power issues and the Pi as a platform rather than distro choice and I did not get further with my understanding in this regard. I am still keen to hear a bit more about this if you don't mind expanding.
Thanks.
Ian
Vic20-Ian
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
cc65 is the balls, but to your point, I still love C. I started C on 8 - bit back in the day, when BASIC had seen it's day passed. Only learned it for real on Amiga, and honed on Linux.
I don't recall asking you to change distros for Pi, only to those detractors that were confusing Linux with distros, and the overwhelming opinion thinking it was complex and unfriendly. Few offered up their hardware with linux distribution mix. PI has limited choices there, doesn't make it a bad thing, but it is more limited. Choice and what works for you matter. But if something doesn't work for you, does not translate it does not work for others. No offense, can come off as annoying, but that's what a forum is for, to speak and to be heard. Stick with what works for you, but I am not going to endorse your path onto others, because it is (IMO) too niche for this thread's context.
I don't recall asking you to change distros for Pi, only to those detractors that were confusing Linux with distros, and the overwhelming opinion thinking it was complex and unfriendly. Few offered up their hardware with linux distribution mix. PI has limited choices there, doesn't make it a bad thing, but it is more limited. Choice and what works for you matter. But if something doesn't work for you, does not translate it does not work for others. No offense, can come off as annoying, but that's what a forum is for, to speak and to be heard. Stick with what works for you, but I am not going to endorse your path onto others, because it is (IMO) too niche for this thread's context.
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
https://robert.hurst-ri.us/rob/retrocomputing
https://robert.hurst-ri.us/rob/retrocomputing
Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
Thanks Robert.
It was this comment below about pick another distro at the beginning that confused me.
Coming from a single choice OS every few years Dos+3.11, Win95, Win98, Win XP, Vista (briefly), 7, 8, 8.1 the Windows user migrating to Linux is not versed in changing to another Distro at what seems the drop of a hat.
It is a huge slow task in Windows. Which may be a reason why I switch home pc to Linux at some point. It is reasonably quick <1 hour with Raspberry Pi.
Having tried previously with Linux dual booting my pc it is less time than installing windows but was not for the faint hearted. I was happy to risk wiping my system and did mess up my MBR once. It took more than an hour or two to get it up and running with PC hardware variation issues. The bootable CD distributions are perhaps a lower risk way to try Linux out before fully committing.
In the context of having tried Linux for a little while and learned some of the pros and cons I feel a little more ready for that change distro comment now but don't understand how to choose vs. try them all and see what you like.
Were your reasons to recommend Pidora over Rasbian based on Fedora community experience for new users or some other factor like better package management or desktop manager?
How you came to make the recommendation is of interest.
Thanks.
It was this comment below about pick another distro at the beginning that confused me.
I have encountered the change the distro answer before and I don't think it is the best answer in the context of moving to Linux or encountering a problem with the distro you are using. It is not a natural response for the non Linux user, let me explain.Your use-case is Raspbian -- a Debian distro. There are a lot of distros. Not all of them have weak documentation or the lack of strong community forum support. Pick another distro. Have you looked at Pidora?
Coming from a single choice OS every few years Dos+3.11, Win95, Win98, Win XP, Vista (briefly), 7, 8, 8.1 the Windows user migrating to Linux is not versed in changing to another Distro at what seems the drop of a hat.
It is a huge slow task in Windows. Which may be a reason why I switch home pc to Linux at some point. It is reasonably quick <1 hour with Raspberry Pi.
Having tried previously with Linux dual booting my pc it is less time than installing windows but was not for the faint hearted. I was happy to risk wiping my system and did mess up my MBR once. It took more than an hour or two to get it up and running with PC hardware variation issues. The bootable CD distributions are perhaps a lower risk way to try Linux out before fully committing.
In the context of having tried Linux for a little while and learned some of the pros and cons I feel a little more ready for that change distro comment now but don't understand how to choose vs. try them all and see what you like.
Were your reasons to recommend Pidora over Rasbian based on Fedora community experience for new users or some other factor like better package management or desktop manager?
How you came to make the recommendation is of interest.
Thanks.
Vic20-Ian
The best things in life are Vic-20
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
Vic20-Ian
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
Linux mobile phone? Isn't that what Android is?
PRG Starter - a VICE helper / Vic Software (Boray Gammon, SD2IEC music player, Vic Disk Menu, Tribbles, Mega Omega, How Many 8K etc.)
Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
yes but very hidden in Android - the link was for someone making their own phone with a Pi, touch screen, software and a GSM card.
Just a bit of fun.
Just a bit of fun.
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?
Well, I just installed Ubuntu 12.04 (it was a long term support distro I guess) a couple of months ago and took a couple of days to feel it out and get my wireless NIC going properly.
I found LinuxCommand.org extremely helpful and getting me a bit familiar with the shell.
I installed a variety of multimedia software that work great with my tablet. Like Pencil and Tupi for my animation and KDenlive for Video Editing (Cinelerra looks good but KDenlive I ended up going with for a few reasons) Then there's Gimp which is a pretty solid Photoshop alternative. I have Wine going and even have my Netflix running too.
It took a bit of tweaking here and there but I feel like I'm better for it. There's plenty of support online with any issue you might encounter so I found all of my fixes within minutes. There is a bit of adjustment and I have a dual boot going for now between that and Windows 7.
I'm happy and probably will be even more hungrier for a better fit distro down the line when I get my feet wet.
On a side note, Sony Vegas posted up my difference masking (compositing) tutorial and tried to pass it off as one of their own creations...LOL...oh well. That's still a solid pice of software but give KDenlive or Cinelerra a go it looks promising - lots of youtube vids on them too.
I found LinuxCommand.org extremely helpful and getting me a bit familiar with the shell.
I installed a variety of multimedia software that work great with my tablet. Like Pencil and Tupi for my animation and KDenlive for Video Editing (Cinelerra looks good but KDenlive I ended up going with for a few reasons) Then there's Gimp which is a pretty solid Photoshop alternative. I have Wine going and even have my Netflix running too.
It took a bit of tweaking here and there but I feel like I'm better for it. There's plenty of support online with any issue you might encounter so I found all of my fixes within minutes. There is a bit of adjustment and I have a dual boot going for now between that and Windows 7.
I'm happy and probably will be even more hungrier for a better fit distro down the line when I get my feet wet.
On a side note, Sony Vegas posted up my difference masking (compositing) tutorial and tried to pass it off as one of their own creations...LOL...oh well. That's still a solid pice of software but give KDenlive or Cinelerra a go it looks promising - lots of youtube vids on them too.
Learning all the time...