Issues with my Vic 20

[gklinger]

For the record, I never said I thought I was correct

Technically, both spellings are correct.

Give up already. What's amusing everyone reading this is that you're constantly on eslapion about how he's stubborn and won't admit when he's wrong but when you seem unwilling or unable to accept that you're exactly the same way. That and the way you're frantically trying to change the subject. Classic.

Back on topic, this looks promising...I might place an order:

If you won't be needing the motherboard I offered you then I'll give it to 6502dude.

6502dude: See you this PM.

[PaulQ]

For the record, I never said I thought I was correct

Technically, both spellings are correct.

Give up already. What's amusing everyone reading this is that you're constantly on eslapion about how he's stubborn and won't admit when he's wrong but when you seem unwilling or unable to accept that you're exactly the same way. That and the way you're frantically trying to change the subject. Classic.

Technically, the spelling is correct. I spelt the words "Heat" and "Sync" exactly as they appear in the dictionary.

Back on topic, this looks promising...I might place an order:

If you won't be needing the motherboard I offered you then I'll give it to 6502dude.

6502dude: See you this PM.

I like to keep all my options open, and recognize the value of having "Spare Parts" for my vintage computers. I thought about placing an order from the link cited for the benefit of the entire Vic 20 community; to see if these chips would be a viable replacement.

That said, if 6502dude's need for the motherboard is greater than mine, then by all means; see to it that he gets it. The worst thing that could happen is that my programming efforts will be delayed and I'd have to buy one from TPUG at WOC.

[ral-clan]

Back on topic, this looks promising...I might place an order:

In doing some web-searching, I found this source for new old stock MOS6560 chips. I'm not sure how legit the site is:

http://www.wt.co.th/?code=610-04800-1

I poked around that site. It seems to be in Thailand (hence the B$ reference which looks high - the US$ price is actually quite good).

It's not entirely strange that there are 6560 chips out there. Commodore did do a lot of manufacturing in Asia (well, Malaysia and the Philipines, so these might be NOS that somehow ended up in Thailand).

You should buy the whole lot of 10! If you get them, I'll buy one off you just for fun and to have a spare. I'm sure you could sell a bunch to Denial members. Just add a buck or two to the chips for your own trouble and you might end up with a new 6560 for your VIC and a couple of spares for "free".

[gklinger]

I like to keep all my options open, and recognize the value of having "Spare Parts" for my vintage computers.

I'll hang on to it for you then.

That said, if 6502dude's need for the motherboard is greater than mine, then by all means; see to it that he gets it.

I'm sure it isn't (he's pretty well stocked). I like to give him my spare odds and ends for his parts collection because he's always fixing something for someone (where someone often equals me).

[PaulQ]

You should buy the whole lot of 10! If you get them, I'll buy one off you just for fun and to have a spare. I'm sure you could sell a bunch to Denial members. Just add a buck or two to the chips for your own trouble and you might end up with a new 6560 for your VIC and a couple of spares for "free".

This is exactly what I was thinking of doing. Unfortunately, I'm having trouble figuring out how to register on their site; I had to use IE, then after registering I got a message in a different language.

I may have to give them an old fashioned phone call.

I'll hang on to it for you then.

Thanks; I would really appreciate that.

[6502dude]

you should buy the whole lot of 10! If you get them, I'll buy one off you just for fun and to have a spare. I'm sure you could sell a bunch to Denial members. Just add a buck or two to the chips for your own trouble and you might end up with a new 6560 for your VIC and a couple of spares for "free".

Sounds too good to be true. What happens when they get your credit card details?

Last 6560 spares I bought were on flea-bay from eslapion (March 1, 2007 - $18.55 with paypal charges + shipping).
They tested okay when I got them.
Hopefully they were not heat stressed.

DQ- as noted via PM, if you attend gathering at end of month, I'm sure somehow you will get fixed up by end of the evening.

[eslapion]

Given all the information instead of making assumptions, I think any intelligent person can draw their own conclusion.

Funny you should say that because your conclusions are strcitly based on assumptions.

Here's a technical FACT for you: the 6560 runs hotter than 55C when used in a VICcr which still has its metal cover. ... checked with a thermocouple.

Another technical fact: you never checked the voltage coming out of your PSU. That's very easy to do.

I based my conclusions on the documented properties of NMOS technology silicium dies and the effect of temperature on electron migration damage.

What exactly do you base your conclusions on? Unsubstatiated suspicions...

[eslapion]

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[6502dude]

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[eslapion]

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[PaulQ]

Funny you should say that because your conclusions are strcitly based on assumptions.

Here's a technical FACT for you: the 6560 runs hotter than 55C when used in a VICcr which still has its metal cover. ... checked with a thermocouple.

Another technical fact: you never checked the voltage coming out of your PSU. That's very easy to do.

I based my conclusions on the documented properties of NMOS technology silicium dies and the effect of temperature on electron migration damage.

What exactly do you base your conclusions on? Unsubstatiated suspicions...

Here's a technical FACT for you: This Vic was working fine before and after your recommended heat sync installed (or heat sink, if you prefer), and the chip that your recommended heat sink (or sync) was supposed to save seems to be the one that has failed.

Since you have never seen my Vic 20 outside of the pictures I have posted, I'd say it's you who's making assumptions and drawing conclusions without knowing all the facts. For instance, how do you know I never checked the voltage coming out of the PSU? I do possess a multimeter, the skill, and other similar PSU's...then again, you assumed that I wasn't using a heat sink (or sync), in the first place, didn't you? You also assumed this was my original Vic 20...

Don't you go accusing me of basing my conclusions on assumptions, when it's very clear that you have been demonstratively guilty of just that. Even your accusations are based on assumptions.

[eslapion]

Here's a technical FACT for you: This Vic was working fine before and after your recommended heat sync installed (or heat sink, if you prefer), and the chip that your recommended heat sink (or sync) was supposed to save seems to be the one that has failed.

So what you're saying is people should not put heat sinks on their 6560? Right?

Since you have never seen my Vic 20 outside of the pictures I have posted, I'd say it's you who's making assumptions and drawing conclusions without knowing all the facts.

What conclusions did I draw exactly? YOU said it failed because of the power supply.

I have no clue why YOUR chip failed and even if it actually is the 6560 that failed in your VIC and make no claims whatsoever about that.

All I am saying is, putting a heat sink on top of your 6560 can contribute to stretch its life considerably. However, just like a seat belt or airbag is not absolutely guaranteed to save your life in an accident a heat sink cannot protect your video chip no matter what.

I know it can help because unlike you, I did verify the running temperature of my video chip and I know what that can do to ANY chip which uses that type of technology. It's been documented... long ago, by both Intel and Motorola and I trust these people are smarter and better equipped than me...

For instance, how do you know I never checked the voltage coming out of the PSU? I do possess a multimeter, the skill, and other similar PSU's...then again, you assumed that I wasn't using a heat sink (or sync), in the first place, didn't you? You also assumed this was my original Vic 20...

I base my replies on what you post. Considering what you posted, I think its quite natural to assume that... unless, of course you're a dishonest person.

When you say nothing, its normal to assume you did nothing. You didn't check the voltage of your PSU because if you did you would have posted the results of your measurements...unless, of course, you're bullshitting people.

Don't you go accusing me of basing my conclusions on assumptions, when it's very clear that you have been demonstratively guilty of just that. Even your accusations are based on assumptions.

You specifically said you base your conclusions, not on specific technical information but on where you bought the machine and the previous owner's claimed use of it as well as the subjectively observed parameters of its operating environment. That doesn't seem to be information you can clearly draw scientifically valid conclusions from...

My mistake: I assumed what you say is true and non-contradictory...

Also, you said you found PLENTY of information about the 6567 or TED chip failing because of heat... how the f*ck do these people KNOW for sure these chips failed because of heat?

Do you really think they can be ABSOLUTELY sure? NO G077d4mn f*ck1n6 way!!

The ONLY way that I know of to be absolutely sure a chip failed because of excessive operating temperature is to dissolve the package with special chemicals and then observe the chip with an electron microscope.

I assume wrong if I think the vast majority of the people claiming their old computer chip failed because of overheating DID NOT do that? Yeah right!

These people simply touched the chip and suddenly felt... "Weuw! That's burning hot!", very often forgetting the fact that most chips become considerably hotter when they fail because many transistors inside which normally act as switches go into resistive operating mode.

Come on, DQ, bring me another 18 wheeler of prime grade pseudoscience and technical bullshit. I need to do some neural iron pumping against crap like that.

P.S.:BTW, do you know what the absolute maximum operating voltage for a 6560 is in order to claim your PSU blew it?

[dragos]

5

[6502dude]

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[PaulQ]

So what you're saying is people should not put heat sinks on their 6560? Right?

Blah blah blah blah blah...

Good grief. How much time did you spend typing all that tripe?

I started this thread by posting a link to a video demonstrating what my Vic 20 is doing. I did this in hopes that someone else had experienced the same issue, and would direct me to the cause of the problem.

Normally, a technically competent individual will ask questions where there is uncertainty, and does not automatically assume that writing nothing implies nothing was done. For example, instead of assuming a person wasn't using a heat sink, they would ask if that person was using a heat sink. Not only does it save that person embarrassment, it also helps them at arriving at truthful conclusions.

In other words, an honest person asks relevant questions to gather the information necessary to arrive at a conclusion based on the answers of those questions. A dishonest person arrives at the conclusion first, then makes assumptions to prove his conclusion right, even if it's not.

The honest person asks if a person has checked the voltage levels of the PSU. A dishonest person assumes that the person did not. An honest person doesn't assume that, because a heat sink didn't save my 6560, I must believe that people should not use a heat sink on their 6560.

I think I've illustrated my point adequately.