Issues with my Vic 20

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eslapion
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Post by eslapion »

DigitalQuirk wrote:I think it possible that the 6560 is more sensitive than other chips, possibly because it does run hotter, which may lead to it failing first. Telling people it fails because of heat may cause them to replace the chip or their Vic, put on a heat sync, but continue to use the same failing power supply which otherwise seems to work. This false sense of security may cause them to go through a few 6560's before they realize what's going on.
Completely unsubstantiated.

In the C64, DRAM always fails first because it uses more voltage sensitive HMOS/CMOS technology while Commodore made chips use less sensitive NMOS technology.

If the 6560 was more sensitive to inadequate voltages because of its high running temperature, how come the 6567 in the 64 which runs even hotter does not fail before the DRAM chips, which produce little heat, when power supplies fail?

Its a question of doping used in the silicium chips and finding exact details about this on the internet is almost impossible. The fact that I can't provide a link to that specific information on the internet doesn't mean this isn't very well known to people experienced in semiconductor production.

Anyways, if you suspect your Commodore brick is the culprit, why don't you simply take a multimeter and check its output voltage?

BTW, you confuse personnal experience with "hear-says". C128 PSUs can and have destroyed equipment they power in the past. Old PC PSUs too. However advances in technology have made this impossible in good quality modern PSUs, including wallwarts. I am not going to give a power electronics course in a forum to demonstrate that.

It seems to me that according to you the bounds of human knowledge is limited to the internet. The fact that I cannot easily find a link to confirm a specific claim does not mean its unsubstantiated. I know for sure you can easily find that if you pay a trip to any good engineering school's library.

Anyways, as I said, Commodore wasn't the only one back in the days to use NMOS/HMOS fabrication process. If you look on wikipedia, you'll see that early intel 8086 and Motorola's 68000 used it too. Since these substrates were made the same way, I don't see why Commodore's chips would be affected differently by temperature. The impact of high temperature on the life span of these chips is thoroughly documented in many vintage databooks by these manufacturers.

Added edit:
The 6567 of the Commodore 64 is the only chip that I know of that dissipates more heat than the VIC-20's 6560.

Here is what Benj Edwards of PC World magazine had to say about this chip recently:
The VIC-II chip, which was originally ceramic, was changed to plastic in later runs of the C64. Unfortunately, the plastic chips didn't conduct heat as well as the ceramic chips, and the VIC-II became a common point of failure in many C64 machines.
From here.

AFAIK, the 6560 is the most common point of failure in the VIC and it happens to be the chip that runs the hottest.

Any intelligent person can draw their own conclusions.
Be normal.
PaulQ
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Post by PaulQ »

To draw my conclusions, I considered the following. First, this was not my original used and abused Vic 20. This was a flea market find, and it just so happens that I know its history. It was a "Low mileage" Vic, having been bought for a child who used it a few times to play some old game cartridges, then quickly became bored and moved onto a Nintendo. This Vic then spent the rest of its existence, prior to the flea market, living in a closet in a climate-controlled environment. It was then swapped for some Nintendo games at this flea market. In the process, some keys were broken off when something was accidentally dropped on it. We all know how sensitive they are to that. The keyboard and inside of the Vic were very clean, and it had suffered very little yellowing, substantiating the story.

I had not owned it for even a year before I installed that heat sync. In the time that I owned it, it was always used in a cool basement on a desk, ensuring none of the vents were blocked. Such is with my life that I might be able to use my Vic 20 for up to two hours a day maximum, and I would be lucky if I could do that once per week on average.

I soon discovered I could not use its original PSU; for some reason, it was not providing power to the datasette. So I decided to use the PSU I got with my TPUG Commodore 64 system instead.

Now, consider that I had installed the heat sync nearly a year ago on this "Low mileage" non-abused Vic, and consider that, when it failed, I checked the PSU to find that it was bulging badly on the bottom.

Given all the information instead of making assumptions, I think any intelligent person can draw their own conclusion.

The thing that ticked me off was the fact that I was in the middle of writing a new program which incorporated Joystick control (a first for me). It was working great, and I had not yet saved my program; when the screen went bad, I quickly turned it off hoping to prevent any permanent damage.

:evil:
gklinger
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Post by gklinger »

I'm not sure if you thought eslapion was kidding or if you're being obstinate for the hell of it but the word really is heatsink (or heat sink).
In the end it will be as if nothing ever happened.
6502dude
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Post by 6502dude »

gklinger wrote:I'm not sure if you thought eslapion was kidding or if you're being obstinate for the hell of it but the word really is heatsink (or heat sink).

Well, he did seem have vertical sync problem and horizontal sync problem.

Perhaps the heat was out of sync also :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by 6502dude on Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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carlsson
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Post by carlsson »

DigitalQuirk wrote:I was in the middle of writing a new program which incorporated Joystick control (a first for me).
Hm, long shot but could a failed 6522 give cause to some of those symptoms, if the timers no longer run as they should? Does the VIC chip rely on the timers or does it run completely on its own?

Did you consider Daniel Kahlin's (tlr) suggestion in the middle of your little flame war, about a transistor UB9 on the motherboard?
Anders Carlsson

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PaulQ
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Post by PaulQ »

gklinger wrote:I'm not sure if you thought eslapion was kidding or if you're being obstinate for the hell of it but the word really is heatsink (or heat sink).
Technically, both spellings are correct. Typically, a search for "Heat sync" will refer one to the definition for "Heat sink." To me, "Heat sink" is a more "Americanized" way of spelling heat "Heat sync." The term "Sink" usually refers to something being submerged, while "Sync" usually refers to synchronizing with something. A heat "Sink" isn't going to sink a chip, but a heat "Sync" will synchronize with the chip and assist it in dissipating heat, preventing it from "Sinking." Or something like that.

A link for your perusal:

http://www.atechfabrication.com/product ... c_6000.htm

I do find it somewhat amusing that Eslapion, with his posts littered with misspellings, would attempt to correct me on such an ambiguous term. :lol:
gklinger
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Post by gklinger »

DigitalQuirk wrote:Technically, both spellings are correct.
Not according to the Oxford English Dictionary or the four other dictionaries I checked to make sure. Which dictionary did you look it up in?
Or something like that.
Yeah, that sounds plausible which is why so many people make the same mistake you're making. The meaning of sink that you're looking for is to decrease in amount or intensity and to lower or depress the level of.
That's the first of 27,300 hits I get for "heatsync" when searching Google vs. the 3,000,000+ hits I get for the correct spelling. What does it prove?
In the end it will be as if nothing ever happened.
PaulQ
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Post by PaulQ »

gklinger wrote: Not according to the Oxford English Dictionary or the four other dictionaries I checked to make sure. Which dictionary did you look it up in?
http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/heat+sync
gklinger wrote: Yeah, that sounds plausible which is why so many people make the same mistake you're making. The meaning of sink that you're looking for is to decrease in amount or intensity and to lower or depress the level of.
Have you ever considered a career as an editor? ;)
gklinger wrote: That's the first of 27,300 hits I get for "heatsync" when searching Google vs. the 3,000,000+ hits I get for the correct spelling. What does it prove?
It demonstrates that the spelling of "Heat sync" is in relatively common use in the English language today. There is also "Neighbour" vs. "Neighbor," "Aluminium" vs "Aluminum," "Fillet" vs "Filet," "Grotty" vs "Grody," etc...
dragos
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Post by dragos »

Um,
it says "see Heat Sink"

then below that, there is a mentioned in section, where it says "no references found"

Its wrong, plain and simple, admit it or shut up, I Cannot beleive you are so petty as not to admit a mistake everyone sees....
carlsson
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Post by carlsson »

In Sweden we are a bit more logical and call it "kylfläns", literally cooling flange since it is there to cool something down, not drown the heat.

Anyway, I find the faulty VIC-20 a bit more interesting than play with words. I hope you get a chance to look at it, even if another loose VIC shouldn't cost you too many dollars if you keep looking for a bargain.
Anders Carlsson

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PaulQ
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Post by PaulQ »

carlsson wrote: Anyway, I find the faulty VIC-20 a bit more interesting than play with words.
I agree; but certain people love the drama...:roll: Drama...misspellings...Déjà vu! Notice how it's always the same pair! :lol:

ImageImage

Avitars for those two. ;)
carlsson wrote:I hope you get a chance to look at it, even if another loose VIC shouldn't cost you too many dollars if you keep looking for a bargain.
I will definitely come up with something in the coming weeks.
dragos
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Post by dragos »

I guess that makes you uber-drama queen...
gklinger
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Post by gklinger »

DigitalQuirk wrote:Have you ever considered a career as an editor? ;)
I'm going to take it up as a hobby when I retire from bullshit spotting.

Seriously, just admit you were wrong and this goes away or keep digging and lose what ever scraps of dignity you're still clinging to. You can fall back on the tired drama queen crap but misdirection ain't going to get you out of this one.
In the end it will be as if nothing ever happened.
PaulQ
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Post by PaulQ »

gklinger wrote:
DigitalQuirk wrote:Have you ever considered a career as an editor? ;)
I'm going to take it up as a hobby when I retire from bullshit spotting.

Seriously, just admit you were wrong and this goes away or keep digging and lose what ever scraps of dignity you're still clinging to. You can fall back on the tired drama queen crap but misdirection ain't going to get you out of this one.
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PaulQ
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Post by PaulQ »

6502dude wrote:Here's a compromise I'd like to see.

DQ admits he was incorrect about heat "sync" and eslapion admits his infamous power supply really was a piece of crap that he threw together.
For the record, I never said I thought I was correct or that he was incorrect; I simply stated where I was coming from. 8)

Not that I think anyone with a life actually cares... :lol:

Back on topic, this looks promising...I might place an order:
ral-clan wrote:In doing some web-searching, I found this source for new old stock MOS6560 chips. I'm not sure how legit the site is:

http://www.wt.co.th/?code=610-04800-1
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