Adding to my ever-expanding Commodore collection: A C128

[PaulQ]

Just won this on evilbay:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... :IT&ih=016

I certainly hope this works out better than my C16, which now sits like a museum artifact in its box. It will be nice to explore the "Path not chosen" when I bought my A500. I was going to buy a C128, but I really fell for the A500's pretty graphics, animation capabilities, and sound.

Only in retrospect did I realize that I probably would've gotten more out of the C128 for my money. In any case, this rounds out my 8 bit collection, now that I have the Commodore Trio: Vic 20, Commodore 64, and Commodore 128. Wife isn't too happy, but I promised her I'd reorganize the basement to keep it all neat. Centallica's pictures gave me some great ideas.

[MacbthPSW]

Congrats on the new family member

In any case, this rounds out my 8 bit collection, now that I have the Commodore Trio: Vic 20, Commodore 64, and Commodore 128.

Why do you consider those three the "Trio"? The PET and Plus/4 (considering it's success in parts of Europe) were pretty major players, though if you're going by sales alone, I think the three you've named were the big ones.

[Alan]

For myself, the VIC, C64, and C128 are the Trio because those are the computers that mattered in my own experience. I got a VIC in 82, I think. Best computer ever.

I don't really count the Plus/4 or PET. I'd never even seen a PET, though they looked cool in photos. Like most people, probably, I was very interested in the Plus/4. That interest rapidly faded about 5 minutes after the first time I used one. I seriously considered a C16 as a replacement for my VIC, but in no time I could get a C64 for about the same price.

I never owned a 128, but I totally lusted after them. For me, the C128 was Commodore finally getting everything right in an 8-bit machine. I remember thinking that the C128 was just perfect. The looks, awesome BASIC, 80 columns, CP/M, quality power supply... it really was a great computer from top to bottom.

[PaulQ]

When it comes to the PET, I never really considered it a "Home" computer. It was more aligned towards businesses and serious hobbyists of the day. To me, the Vic 20 was the first 8 bit computer Commodore offered as a "Home" computer. What, to me, defines a home computer is the fact that: a) It would "Work" with a standard television set, b) It offered colour and sound to make it suitable as an entertainment console, and c) Most importantly is the price. The PET, while very well-priced for a computer like it in its day, was still quite expensive, costing over a thousand dollars. A "Home" computer shouldn't cost more than, say, a VCR or a decent stereo system component. This still holds true today, with the bulk of home computers priced in the mid-hundreds. As such, the Vic 20, while based on the PET, was Commodore's first true offering to the masses as a home computer.

The C64 was still largely based on the Vic 20; so much so that, prior to its introduction, it was called the Vic 64. It was basically a Vic 20 with the graphical capability and memory people wanted, but with an added bonus; the SID chip. As we all know, the C128 is essentially a beefed-up C64 with, again, the features people wanted in a C64: An 80 column screen mode, real CP/M compatibility, a better BASIC, a better keyboard, and more memory. This time, they also ensured full backwards compatibility.

The Plus/4 and C16 are, to me, of a completely different family of 8 bit computers. Where the Vic 20, C64, and C128 are a trio, the Plus/4 and C16 are a duo. While the Vic, C64, and C128 were all fully hardware compatible with each other, the Plus/4 and C16 only shared the serial bus interface.

I don't really count the Plus/4 or PET. I'd never even seen a PET, though they looked cool in photos. Like most people, probably, I was very interested in the Plus/4. That interest rapidly faded about 5 minutes after the first time I used one. I seriously considered a C16 as a replacement for my VIC, but in no time I could get a C64 for about the same price.

My sentiments exactly; I, too, considered the C16 until the prices dropped substantially on the C64; then it was like, why bother with a C16 when the C64 really did have it all?

I never owned a 128, but I totally lusted after them. For me, the C128 was Commodore finally getting everything right in an 8-bit machine. I remember thinking that the C128 was just perfect. The looks, awesome BASIC, 80 columns, CP/M, quality power supply... it really was a great computer from top to bottom.

Yep, me too. I actually started saving for a 128, and when I had enough money, I realized that, add on what I could get for my entire C64 system, I could own an Amiga 500 with a 1084s monitor. In retrospect, it still cost me more by the time I had to buy a new printer, modem, second disk drive, more memory; then there was the expense of rebuilding my game and software library. A short while after I bought my A500, the prices were really dropping on the 1571's and 1581's. With access to the world of CP/M, I could only imagine the kind of system I'd have ended up with had I gone the C128 route.

[Centallica]

Just won this on evilbay:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... :IT&ih=016

I certainly hope this works out better than my C16, which now sits like a museum artifact in its box. It will be nice to explore the "Path not chosen" when I bought my A500. I was going to buy a C128, but I really fell for the A500's pretty graphics, animation capabilities, and sound.

Only in retrospect did I realize that I probably would've gotten more out of the C128 for my money. In any case, this rounds out my 8 bit collection, now that I have the Commodore Trio: Vic 20, Commodore 64, and Commodore 128. Wife isn't too happy, but I promised her I'd reorganize the basement to keep it all neat. Centallica's pictures gave me some great ideas.

Glad I could inspire and win one for the "boys"

I had to give a scrap booking corner of the basement to win my battle

Even so, when her female friends come over they ask "why does he have more of the basement than you do?". She just says that I'm her "Prince" but I tell them she has no diversified intellectual interests as I do

[d0c]

evilbay

[gklinger]

Just won this on evilbay:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... :IT&ih=016

I saw that and my first thought was, 'now he has to drive all the way to Mississauga'.

Congrats. The 128 is a nifty machine and well worth owning.

[ral-clan]

I can't believe how many C128s (and 128Ds) I've passed up over the years. I wouldn't do that anymore - but that's hindsight.

For me the three best Commodore computers were the PET 2001, the VIC-20 and the C64. The C128 came to late to be interesting for me (I had my sights set on the Amiga). The other thing that bugged me about the C128 was that the 128 part of the machine was not well integrated with the C64 part. It was like two separate computers rather than one integrated whole. However, even if you just use it as a regular C64, it has high build quality. I appreciate it more now than I did at the time.

[PaulQ]

I saw that and my first thought was, 'now he has to drive all the way to Mississauga'.

Congrats. The 128 is a nifty machine and well worth owning.

Well, it DOES come with Joysticks and a white 1541 drive, along with all the cables and box. Adding in the cost of fuel and my time to go out and get it, I think I got a pretty good deal; as long as it works! The seller is willing to meet me halfway, so that's a definite plus.

For me the three best Commodore computers were the PET 2001, the VIC-20 and the C64. The C128 came to late to be interesting for me (I had my sights set on the Amiga). The other thing that bugged me about the C128 was that the 128 part of the machine was not well integrated with the C64 part. It was like two separate computers rather than one integrated whole. However, even if you just use it as a regular C64, it has high build quality. I appreciate it more now than I did at the time.

When it comes to which Commodore computers are "Best," my choices are the Pet 2001, the Commodore 64, and the Amiga. These three made the biggest impacts, I think.

As for the 3 in 1 design, I thought it to be an excellent idea. What bothered me was the fact that the C64 mode couldn't access the additional RAM, even as an option (as far as I could tell) nor the extra clock speed for a "Super 64" mode.

[MacbthPSW]

What bothered me was the fact that the C64 mode couldn't access the additional RAM, even as an option (as far as I could tell) nor the extra clock speed for a "Super 64" mode.

C64 mode can access VDC RAM, but not the extra 64k main RAM.

C64 mode can switch the processor to 2Mhz, but the VIC-II won't operate at that speed, so you lose video during that time. Quite a few "crunchers" make use of the faster processing, since there is no real need for video output while it's working. And a few games make use of it by only switching the processor to 2Mhz "in the borders" 50/60 times per second, once the screen has been drawn.

[gklinger]

I'm going to be at the very east end of Scarborough (Rouge River area) on Saturday night so if it would help you and your seller is willing to bring the stuff downtown on Friday or Saturday, I can pay for it and bring it to the Scarborough/Pickering border and hand it off to you.

[PaulQ]

I'm going to be at the very east end of Scarborough (Rouge River area) on Saturday night so if it would help you and your seller is willing to bring the stuff downtown on Friday or Saturday, I can pay for it and bring it to the Scarborough/Pickering border and hand it off to you.

How generous of you! I wish I'd known you'd pay for it for me beforehand; I've already paid him via Paypal (used my Zip disk proceeds). Turns out my wife and I will be at the Metro Toronto convention center this weekend anyway, so it won't require a special trip on my part.

C64 mode can access VDC RAM, but not the extra 64k main RAM.

C64 mode can switch the processor to 2Mhz, but the VIC-II won't operate at that speed, so you lose video during that time. Quite a few "crunchers" make use of the faster processing, since there is no real need for video output while it's working. And a few games make use of it by only switching the processor to 2Mhz "in the borders" 50/60 times per second, once the screen has been drawn.

I did not know this. Still, I always thought it absurd that you couldn't even switch the extra 64k of RAM on to act as a RAM expander in C64 mode. I wonder what benefit there would be in being able to access the extra VDC RAM?

[MacbthPSW]

Still, I always thought it absurd that you couldn't even switch the extra 64k of RAM on to act as a RAM expander in C64 mode.

Hmm, like an REU? That would be neat, but would require quite a bit of extra circuitry. The REC chip probably wasn't cheap to produce.

I wonder what benefit there would be in being able to access the extra VDC RAM?

I know of very few programs that use it. The file copier built into Super Snapshot 5 will use it as a buffer to reduce disk swaps, and that's handy.

[PaulQ]

As you all know, I got my C128 today. The guy was really nice; we met at Casey's in Toronto. Saved me a bundle on shipping, since my wife wanted to go to the CanFitPro show at the convention center anyway.

It works! It works! It really, really works! Besides some yellowing (which is to be expected), it works PERFECTLY. Even the white 1541 that came with it works exactly as it should. I am so happy. This really does more than make up for that C16, which I've almost forgotten about now that I got my new pride and joy.

Pictures will soon follow.

[Bacon]

It's not only possible to use the VDC RAM in C64 mode, you can also use the 80 column display itself, although you have to program it yourself in machine code since it's not supported by BASIC.

The reason you can't access the extra 64K is because of the need for compatibility with old C64 software and hardware. Bil Herd explained the reasoning behind the 128's design on Usenet many years ago. His articles are archived in Cameron Kaiser's Commodore Knowledge Base, here and here.

Bil has started to appear on several forums lately. He's talked more about the design of the 128 on the Retrobits Podcast forum, in this thread. He's also active on Commodore 128 Alive!'s foum.