Why would anyone want to own a VIC 20???
On the topic of the number of POKEs, most non-Commodore owners will laugh at both VIC-20 and C64 when it comes to the sound department. The VIC-20 requires at least two pokes, the C64 at least four pokes. From a gaming point of view however, it is a bit irrelevant since most or all the games you play will be ready written.
Anders Carlsson
The c64 could benefit from some more commands - but that would just turn it into a c128carlsson wrote:On the topic of the number of POKEs, most non-Commodore owners will laugh at both VIC-20 and C64 when it comes to the sound department. The VIC-20 requires at least two pokes, the C64 at least four pokes. From a gaming point of view however, it is a bit irrelevant since most or all the games you play will be ready written.
And eveyone knows how slow that one is in 1MHz mode...The vic-20 is so simple that I think more commands only would make it slower, not simpler to program. One command would be great though. A window command to set the size and position of the actual screen
Last edited by Boray on Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
PRG Starter - a VICE helper / Vic Software (Boray Gammon, SD2IEC music player, Vic Disk Menu, Tribbles, Mega Omega, How Many 8K etc.)
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Thomas Hechelhammer
- Vic 20 Dabbler
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:51 pm
- Location: Germany
Nice article, but:
This is partially wrong.Like all video game platforms, there are a number of excellent games that were only released on the Vic 20. In other words, if you want to play any of these games then you simply must own a Vic 20. Some of the better games that fall into this category include Raid on Fort Knox, Spiders of Mars, Predator, Mosquito Infestation, Cosmic Jailbreak and Star Battle.
Cosmic Jailbreak also exists on the CBM/PET Series (I really love this game).
On the other hand I miss in the article that the scene is still producing software for the VIC20.
-- Thomas
I wonder if Cosmic Jailbreak and the other PET games were "retro"-ported from the VIC-20 games. They look very much alike, despite the use of character graphics.
http://www.commodore.ca/gallery/Commodo ... _shots.htm
http://www.commodore.ca/gallery/Commodo ... _shots.htm
Anders Carlsson
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Thomas Hechelhammer
- Vic 20 Dabbler
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:51 pm
- Location: Germany
Who was first: The egg or the chicken?
I had Cosmic Jailbreak on my tape when I worked on the old CBM3032 in my school.
And this was about one year before the vic20 came in the shops.
So I think cosmic jailbreak was ported from CBM/PET to the vic20.
Curiously there exists no cosmic jailbreak on the C64, and I don't remember any similar game on the game-machines of this time.
-- Thomas
I had Cosmic Jailbreak on my tape when I worked on the old CBM3032 in my school.
And this was about one year before the vic20 came in the shops.
So I think cosmic jailbreak was ported from CBM/PET to the vic20.
Curiously there exists no cosmic jailbreak on the C64, and I don't remember any similar game on the game-machines of this time.
-- Thomas
The VIC-20 wasn't my first computer (a C64 was). But ever since I heard about the machine I've been curious about it. I even bought one from a class mate in highscool for approx $10 (100 SEK, in 1994-95), but he didn't gave me a power supply or an RF-modulator, so I couldn't use it until just recently!
The feeling of the VIC is somewhat more special than that of the C64. It's a greater challenge and because it's less common than the C64 I have a feeling there are still lots of things to invent and discover.
Besides that, a PAL VIC-20 is more than 10% faster than a PAL C64!
The feeling of the VIC is somewhat more special than that of the C64. It's a greater challenge and because it's less common than the C64 I have a feeling there are still lots of things to invent and discover.
Besides that, a PAL VIC-20 is more than 10% faster than a PAL C64!
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eslapion
- ultimate expander
- Posts: 5458
- Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:50 pm
- Location: Canada
- Occupation: 8bit addict
I still use the VIC to teach programming to young kids.
I teach them that there is a lot of things that is "prefabricated" on a PC but to make your own programs on a PC requires enormous amounts of time and knowledge.
On a VIC, I can teach a 7y.o. to make his or her own program in less than 30 minutes.
I teach them that there is a lot of things that is "prefabricated" on a PC but to make your own programs on a PC requires enormous amounts of time and knowledge.
On a VIC, I can teach a 7y.o. to make his or her own program in less than 30 minutes.
Nice article. It covers the reasons why a collector may choose to buy a VIC-20.
But like Thomas, I don't think it captures the reasons why developer/hacker choose the VIC-20 over other platforms.
Because the VIC-20 die a premature death, it was not as fully exploited from a programming point of view as other platforms. This leaves scope for new discoveries.
Compare it with the 8-bit Atari range. They started life before the VIC-20, and were still being released after the 16-bit era had taken hold. And I'm still amazed at what some of the current programming teams are able to achieve with this platform.
Part of it's attraction for developers is having to work around it's limitations. Much like the satsifaction that Atari 2600 developers get when they produce they're first program that runs on a _very_ restrictive platform.
Last night I was playing some of the newer developed games (on original hardware of course) and it amazes me the impressive looks and smooth controls that developers can achieve in as little as 1k. My current favourites are Dragon Wing, Astro Nell and a downhill ski game that I can't remember the name of right now, but starts with 'V'.
But I don't want to detract from the article too much, it did a good job of capturing the essence of the VIC-20 collector.
BTW, I'm new to the VIC-20. Unlike most here, the Atari 400 was my first computer way back when, and yes, I still have it. But when we were looking to buy, we had to choose between that and the VIC-20. I was always envious of my friends proper keyboards, and the ease with which they could make their own RAM expansions. I was flat out finding any technical information regarding the Atari, and found that it was much less popular in Australia than the Commodore systems, even if it was technically more advanced.
But like Thomas, I don't think it captures the reasons why developer/hacker choose the VIC-20 over other platforms.
Because the VIC-20 die a premature death, it was not as fully exploited from a programming point of view as other platforms. This leaves scope for new discoveries.
Compare it with the 8-bit Atari range. They started life before the VIC-20, and were still being released after the 16-bit era had taken hold. And I'm still amazed at what some of the current programming teams are able to achieve with this platform.
Part of it's attraction for developers is having to work around it's limitations. Much like the satsifaction that Atari 2600 developers get when they produce they're first program that runs on a _very_ restrictive platform.
Last night I was playing some of the newer developed games (on original hardware of course) and it amazes me the impressive looks and smooth controls that developers can achieve in as little as 1k. My current favourites are Dragon Wing, Astro Nell and a downhill ski game that I can't remember the name of right now, but starts with 'V'.
But I don't want to detract from the article too much, it did a good job of capturing the essence of the VIC-20 collector.
BTW, I'm new to the VIC-20. Unlike most here, the Atari 400 was my first computer way back when, and yes, I still have it. But when we were looking to buy, we had to choose between that and the VIC-20. I was always envious of my friends proper keyboards, and the ease with which they could make their own RAM expansions. I was flat out finding any technical information regarding the Atari, and found that it was much less popular in Australia than the Commodore systems, even if it was technically more advanced.
Didn't the Atari 8-bit computer line go through small updates in the time frame 1978-1985? When it comes to premature death, I think almost all computers with the exception of Commodore 64 and perhaps ZX Spectrum 48K suffered from that. Most computers could only stay on top for two, three years and then something else was hot.
For the technically interested, Viznut of PWP wrote a text a couple of years ago about anomalies in VIC-I, more exactly what seems to happen when you set either the character set or video matrix to unconnected address space. Me and Mike tried from an amateur (at least me) point of view try to visualize if these anomalies could be used for anything, but I don't think we came to a meaningful conclusion. Plain raster timing tricks etc are a bit easier to understand and utilize it seems, based on some of the most recent VIC-20 demos (PAL only).
For the technically interested, Viznut of PWP wrote a text a couple of years ago about anomalies in VIC-I, more exactly what seems to happen when you set either the character set or video matrix to unconnected address space. Me and Mike tried from an amateur (at least me) point of view try to visualize if these anomalies could be used for anything, but I don't think we came to a meaningful conclusion. Plain raster timing tricks etc are a bit easier to understand and utilize it seems, based on some of the most recent VIC-20 demos (PAL only).
Anders Carlsson
The paradox about the C64 story is that its success was heavily depending on the fact that is wasn't updated during its lifetime. Its function remained exactly the same, which made it possible (and neccessary) to release software available for all commodore owners, not just those who had the latest machine or some expansion memory. During the 80's, the older the computer grew, the more games & software were there available, and the more owners were there to buy it. And the more programmers were there willing to squeeze just a little bit more out of the machine. And it was lucrative, because there was such an enormous market. - Because the architecture of the computer wasn't changed.
(Ofcourse there was the C128, but it was a too great step to take for most customers.)
But I do think that it was the VIC-20 that started the whole thing. Without it preparing the market, the C64 wouldn't have been such a success. The VIC died, so that the C64 would live...
But... It didn't die! The C64 survives, and so does the VIC!
(Ofcourse there was the C128, but it was a too great step to take for most customers.)
But I do think that it was the VIC-20 that started the whole thing. Without it preparing the market, the C64 wouldn't have been such a success. The VIC died, so that the C64 would live...
But... It didn't die! The C64 survives, and so does the VIC!
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Thomas Hechelhammer
- Vic 20 Dabbler
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:51 pm
- Location: Germany
The other question is:
It the world still interested in new games on the vic20?
Does it make sense spending months writing some code, and then discovering that only a handful of guys seems to be interested?
Like on the big brother, the c64, it's very likely that the next development will be copied and spread all over in some days ... just look at Turrican III which was stolen on a computer-party and available some days later.
Which machine would you prefer for playing Turrican?
The C64, A500, PS or, if a port would be available, the vic20?
Being nostalgic is nice, but due to its limitations in graphics (176x184 pixel versus 320x200 pixel and less usable colors) I think it takes too much man-power being creative on this computer.
How many people are still active (non_collectors)?
I would like to read your opinions and ideas, what is possible and what not.
I'm still active on the vic20, and it eats up a lot of time.
See you after work.
-- Thomas
It the world still interested in new games on the vic20?
Does it make sense spending months writing some code, and then discovering that only a handful of guys seems to be interested?
Like on the big brother, the c64, it's very likely that the next development will be copied and spread all over in some days ... just look at Turrican III which was stolen on a computer-party and available some days later.
Which machine would you prefer for playing Turrican?
The C64, A500, PS or, if a port would be available, the vic20?
Being nostalgic is nice, but due to its limitations in graphics (176x184 pixel versus 320x200 pixel and less usable colors) I think it takes too much man-power being creative on this computer.
How many people are still active (non_collectors)?
I would like to read your opinions and ideas, what is possible and what not.
I'm still active on the vic20, and it eats up a lot of time.
See you after work.
-- Thomas
Thomas, you're correct in one sense...I don't think it is worth writing games for the VIC-20 to make money. More for the satisfaction of seeing what you can achieve. I would be happy if I could produce something which was good enough to be reviewed in a magazine like Retro Gamer. Come to think about it...I'd be happy if I could produce something!
It's true about the single configuration of the C64 being one of it's greatest advantages. If you're writing for emulator now, it's not an issue for the VIC-20 (or many other platforms) as the emulators allow you to have most any configuration that was available in it's day. But if you want it to run on the original hardware, then you're correct in saying that you cut out some of you're potential audience by choosing something non-standard. That just means that there's less poeple to tell you what a great job you've done!
Kudos is about all there is to achieve. But hey, for a hobby, that's enough for me.
It's true about the single configuration of the C64 being one of it's greatest advantages. If you're writing for emulator now, it's not an issue for the VIC-20 (or many other platforms) as the emulators allow you to have most any configuration that was available in it's day. But if you want it to run on the original hardware, then you're correct in saying that you cut out some of you're potential audience by choosing something non-standard. That just means that there's less poeple to tell you what a great job you've done!
Kudos is about all there is to achieve. But hey, for a hobby, that's enough for me.
Of late, there have been at least two new software houses preparing to release new VIC and retro software. Of course there's Protovision who're very professional at the higher end, but then there's also RetroSoft and Cronosoft who are both releasing budget games on TAPES!! I think they'll be selling disks too soon.
In my view this is great news. Although they're re-releasing a back catalogue, outlets like this will make it possible for new games to be written, licensed and sold, giving developers a real incentive other than kudos. I can't think of anything better than having something i'd written available for sale on tape! (Although disk is obviously more practical).
In my view it's not enough to be nostalgic, the scene should be pushing forward and showing just what the VIC is capable of. Of course it's a limited system in comparison to the C64 etc, but that's where the challenge is!
Now, where's my 'ML for Dummies'.......
In my view this is great news. Although they're re-releasing a back catalogue, outlets like this will make it possible for new games to be written, licensed and sold, giving developers a real incentive other than kudos. I can't think of anything better than having something i'd written available for sale on tape! (Although disk is obviously more practical).
In my view it's not enough to be nostalgic, the scene should be pushing forward and showing just what the VIC is capable of. Of course it's a limited system in comparison to the C64 etc, but that's where the challenge is!
Now, where's my 'ML for Dummies'.......