Best way to understand the differences?

[JohnnyRockets]

Hi,

What is the best way to understand the differences between the VIC-20 and the C64? Read both Reference Manuals? Other?

I appreciate your responses.

[adric22]

Hi,

What is the best way to understand the differences between the VIC-20 and the C64? Read both Reference Manuals? Other?

Spending time with both units would be a good way.

Essentially the C64 is more evolved VIC-20. It shares many things in common. Same case and keyboard (although different color) and same BASIC and most of the kernel ROM. Most of the peripherals are compatible such as disk drives, tape drives, joysticks, modems, monitors, etc.

The 3 primary differences are:

• RAM - Vic-20 has around 5K of RAM and the C64 has 64K.
• Video - The VIC-20 has essentially 8 colors and the C64 has 16. The C64 also has double the screen resolution as well as hardware sprites and a true bit-mapped graphics mode.
• Sound - The VIC-20 has a very rudimentary sound generator and the C64 has the famous "SID Chip" which is a full 3-voice synthesizer.

And although the VIC-20 can be expanded to 32K of RAM, very few users ever did so most software is either a ROM cartridge (thus no limitation on program size) or it is designed to run on the 5K that comes from the factory.

[JohnnyRockets]

Hi,

What is the best way to understand the differences between the VIC-20 and the C64? Read both Reference Manuals? Other?

Spending time with both units would be a good way.

Essentially the C64 is more evolved VIC-20. It shares many things in common. Same case and keyboard (although different color) and same BASIC and most of the kernel ROM. Most of the peripherals are compatible such as disk drives, tape drives, joysticks, modems, monitors, etc.

The 3 primary differences are:

• RAM - Vic-20 has around 5K of RAM and the C64 has 64K.
• Video - The VIC-20 has essentially 8 colors and the C64 has 16. The C64 also has double the screen resolution as well as hardware sprites and a true bit-mapped graphics mode.
• Sound - The VIC-20 has a very rudimentary sound generator and the C64 has the famous "SID Chip" which is a full 3-voice synthesizer.

And although the VIC-20 can be expanded to 32K of RAM, very few users ever did so most software is either a ROM cartridge (thus no limitation on program size) or it is designed to run on the 5K that comes from the factory.

Hi adric22!

Wow, thanks, that was a great comparison, I did not know hardly any of these things! I have both systems, so I probably will spend time with both! I like that idea the most!

[Boray]

And although the VIC-20 can be expanded to 32K of RAM, very few users ever did

Sure, most users didn't expand to 32 K but most users had a memory expansion, of 8 or 16 K. At least around here. The explanation why is probably piracy: With a RAM expansion, you can play copied cartridge games and there were a lot of other 8K and 16K programs around as well that people wanted to run.

As you only listed the benefits of the C64. Here are the benefits of the Vic-20:

* Vic-20 is faster. The PAL Vic-20 is about 26% faster than the PAL C64.
* You can set the size and the position of the screen. You can make a screen covering the whole monitor/TV in hardware without borders without any tricks.
* An extra mode for 8x16 pixel characters
* 4 sound voices (The c64 has 3)
* The screen does not blank when loading programs so you can see what's going on. No need to press any key when a program was found on tape.
* Nicer default graphics. On the C64 they made everything thicker and that made some of the graphical lines to be identical.
* Better default colors. Today it's known that it's easier to read dark text on a light background than the other way around.
* Many things are easier to program on the Vic-20 because of it's simplicity. The smaller screen also allows for faster basic games. This because you simply have to move twice as much on the screen on the c64 to move an object of the same size. The small screen size + the faster cpu makes the vic-20 ideal for writing basic games.
* Recently discovered graphics modes can very well compete with the C64 resolution for displaying pictures.

[JohnnyRockets]

And although the VIC-20 can be expanded to 32K of RAM, very few users ever did

Sure, most users didn't expand to 32 K but most users had a memory expansion, of 8 or 16 K. At least around here. The explanation why is probably piracy: With a RAM expansion, you can play copied cartridge games and there were a lot of other 8K and 16K programs around as well that people wanted to run.

As you only listed the benefits of the C64. Here are the benefits of the Vic-20:

* Vic-20 is faster. The PAL Vic-20 is about 26% faster than the PAL C64.
* You can set the size and the position of the screen. You can make a screen covering the whole monitor/TV in hardware without borders without any tricks.
* An extra mode for 8x16 pixel characters
* 4 sound voices (The c64 has 3)
* The screen does not blank then loading programs so you can see what's going on. No need to press any key when a program was found on tape.
* Nicer default graphics. On the C64 they made everything thicker and that made some of the graphical lines to be identical.
* Better default colors. Today it's known that it's easier to read dark text on a light background than the other way around.
* Many things are easier to program on the Vic-20 because of it's simplicity. The smaller screen also allows for faster basic games. This because you simply have to move twice as much on the screen on the c64 to move an object of the same size. The small screen size + the faster cpu makes the vic-20 ideal for writing basic games.
* Recently discovered graphics modes can very well compete with the C64 resolution for displaying pictures.

Hi Boray!

Thanks for this great comparison. I did not know ANY of these things!

"Recently discovered graphics modes" sound pretty cool, what is that all about?

[adric22]

* Recently discovered graphics modes can very well compete with the C64 resolution for displaying pictures.

Can you elaborate on this point? I've not heard of any new graphics modes.

[Boray]

* Recently discovered graphics modes can very well compete with the C64 resolution for displaying pictures.

Can you elaborate on this point? I've not heard of any new graphics modes.

I should probably have said recently INVENTED graphics modes. Anyway, I meant these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_s9pozUwog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaHQ9Lh_8RY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w48GtqFpcrM

[adric22]

I should probably have said recently INVENTED graphics modes. Anyway, I meant these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_s9pozUwog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaHQ9Lh_8RY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w48GtqFpcrM

Interesting - I've not seen these before. While I'll agree that they are impressive for the VIC, I wouldn't say it competes with the C64. The biggest limiting factor, IMO is the horizontal resolution and the lack of available colors.

[Boray]

I should probably have said recently INVENTED graphics modes. Anyway, I meant these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_s9pozUwog
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaHQ9Lh_8RY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w48GtqFpcrM

Interesting - I've not seen these before. While I'll agree that they are impressive for the VIC, I wouldn't say it competes with the C64. The biggest limiting factor, IMO is the horizontal resolution and the lack of available colors.

As it says in the text for the first video: "79872 pixels on a VIC-20 - nearly 25% more than the C64". Wouldn't you say a 25% higher resolution even competes? And as for the number of colors, if I'm not mistaken all 16 colors are available in these screen modes.

[adric22]

As it says in the text for the first video: "79872 pixels on a VIC-20 - nearly 25% more than the C64". Wouldn't you say a 25% higher resolution even competes? And as for the number of colors, if I'm not mistaken all 16 colors are available in these screen modes.

Raw numbers don't always tell the whole story. Much like megapixels don't always tell how good a camera will be. In these modes the VIC-20 still only has 192 horizontal pixels or worse 96 pixels in multi-color mode. The C64 still has almost twice the horizontal resolution. You can add vertical resolution all day long and it won't make the picture all that much better. About the only benefit you would get is better dithering of colors but not more detail to the picture.

[Boray]

As it says in the text for the first video: "79872 pixels on a VIC-20 - nearly 25% more than the C64". Wouldn't you say a 25% higher resolution even competes? And as for the number of colors, if I'm not mistaken all 16 colors are available in these screen modes.

Raw numbers don't always tell the whole story. Much like megapixels don't always tell how good a camera will be. In these modes the VIC-20 still only has 192 horizontal pixels or worse 96 pixels in multi-color mode. The C64 still has almost twice the horizontal resolution. You can add vertical resolution all day long and it won't make the picture all that much better. About the only benefit you would get is better dithering of colors but not more detail to the picture.

Ehum... One of the modes offer 192x416. The c64 offers 320x200. Let's put the vic-20's monitor on the side and you will get 416x192 with the vic-20. The vic-20 has then 1.3 times higher resolution in one of the dimensions and the c64 has 1.04 times higher resolution in the other dimension. Wow, those extra tiny 8 lines really must be something then to outweigh the 96 extra lines in the other dimension....

[tokra]

Even though I programmed the modes, I tend to agree with adric22 here - the higher resolution does not look as balanced as on the C64 - the pixels are just too wide on the VIC-20 especially in multicolor-mode. Also in fairness, the 416 vertical resolution is only possible with interlace mode.

Nevertheless, I find it interesting to see how much the boundaries of the machine can be overcome.

On the C64 you can easily create a higher resolution with border sprites for examples. So my comparison of 25% more pixels isn't really fair, but more for show

[Boray]

I didn't say the vic-20 has better graphics. All I pointed out was that those graphics modes can compete with the c64 for displaying pictures. Not for game graphics, not for utility graphics, but for displaying pictures. The pictures in those vic-20 demos looks better than many many many pictures I've seen on the c64 so of course it can compete. I haven't said anything about if there are even better looking pictures or displaying techniques on the c64. There probably are.

[Boray]

Even without any tricks, you can set a PAL vic-20 to display a 224x280 screen:
http://www.soundclick.com/members/defau ... &id=321677

That is 62720 pixles. The c64's 320x200 is 64000 pixles or just 1.02 times the Vic-20 resolution. You could probably even match the same number of pixles as the c64 if you skip the small border in that picture. So even without any newly invented tricks, the vic-20 CAN compete in resolution. You would have to turn the knobs on your monitor though!

[rhurst]

I agree with Boray that VIC competes with VIC-II in terms of on-screen color and resolution; and VIC is faster with its low resolution modes of its own. But throw in C64 hardware sprites, well, that's a horse of a different color.