Greetings, fellow Vic fans

[ral-clan]

I agree. I use Amigas a lot and am forced to use Windows systems out of practicality. But in terms of a hobbiest computer....the VIC-20 is amazing. I didn't appreciate this back in the 80s....but do now.

The VIC has it all:

- a good library of games
- a wide selection of peripherals
- a very simple machine which is easy to program
- simply made, so one can open it up and understand how it works (and repair it).
- there is not much that separates the user from the hardware. When you program, you are basically accessing the hardware directly (with POKES, etc.).
- a good selection of expansion ports which are a real boon to anyone wanting to interface electronic projects, etc.
- plus, used VIC stuff is still cheap.

[PaulQ]

I'm reading through some of my old magazines, and have come across things like a 40/80 column display card from Quantum Data. Mind you, the price was pretty steep ($299), but combine that with a memory expander, you'd have a pretty capable business machine for the day. Interesting that that ad should lie adjacent to the "$20 VIC Digitizer" article.

Programming today on PC's and in Windows really isn't programming at all; it's more about stringing together the necessary pre-programmed libraries to accomplish whatever task you need. We end up with programs 10 times bigger than they need to be, because those libraries contain so many functions that will go unused. It makes interpreted BASIC look efficient.

I want to build that $20 digitizer, and learn how to program in machine language. There's so much I could've done with my Vic back then; at least now, as you mentioned in your last statement, the Vic stuff is cheap. Back then, a 16k expander was $149.95, and a 24k expander was $199.95. That money would go a long way on a Vic today!

[ral-clan]

I'm reading through some of my old magazines, and have come across things like a 40/80 column display card from Quantum Data. Mind you, the price was pretty steep ($299), but combine that with a memory expander, you'd have a pretty capable business machine for the day.

A bunch of us on Denial have the Protecto & Data-20 40/80 column boards. They are indeed extremely useful. Most of these had 8K built in as well. In fact, if you have one of these, you basically have all the functionality of the PET (which sold for $700 to $1200 in the 1980s) and more. This, combined with the programmer's aid cartridge, machine language monitor, Superexpander and a multislot expander made the VIC a real programming powerhouse (for the day). With this setup I think it compares favourably with an Apple II, and goes beyond what a PC of this era could do. When you consider all of this, it's funny that the VIC was put down so much. It's really very capable.

I do realise that in 1980s prices all these things would have increased the price of the VIC to nearly that of the Apple II and PET, though.

Interesting that that ad should lie adjacent to the "$20 VIC Digitizer" article.

Would love to see this article. Can you scan it? What does it digitize (speech/audio/video)?

Programming today on PC's and in Windows really isn't programming at all; it's more about stringing together the necessary pre-programmed libraries to accomplish whatever task you need. We end up with programs 10 times bigger than they need to be, because those libraries contain so many functions that will go unused. It makes interpreted BASIC look efficient.

I totally agree. When you program the VIC, you really are working directly on the hardware (chips, etc.). You gain a great deal of understanding of how the computer underneath works. With modern programming, you have to go through so many layers (the OS, the drivers, DirectX, etc.) that you are not working on the machine at all. It's impossible to write a 1K program with this setup. In fact, I wonder, on a modern windows box, how big a program would be that simply scrolled "Hello World!" on the screen. On the VIC this would be only a few bytes long.

[Schema]

In fact, I wonder, on a modern windows box, how big a program would be that simply scrolled "Hello World!" on the screen. On the VIC this would be only a few bytes long.

It depends what programming language you're using, of course. You may enjoy this:
http://www.infiltec.com/j-h-wrld.htm

The "Master Programmer" section really is how you'd do it in C++ with Microsoft Foundation Classes on Windows.

Quite honestly though, if all I needed to do was scroll text, I'd make a Powerpoint presentation.

[PaulQ]

A bunch of us on Denial have the Protecto & Data-20 40/80 column boards. They are indeed extremely useful. Most of these had 8K built in as well.

I wonder where one would get one of those?

With this setup I think it compares favourably with an Apple II, and goes beyond what a PC of this era could do. When you consider all of this, it's funny that the VIC was put down so much. It's really very capable.

Yes, and I distinctly remember a certain amount of "Elitism" from Apple computer owners throughout the 1980's. Some of the comments were downright obnoxious; I recall hearing one person snort, "If you can't afford a real computer, why waste your money?" Thing is, I learned a lot with that computer and could express myself creatively with it.

Would love to see this article. Can you scan it? What does it digitize (speech/audio/video)?

It's actually a "Digitizer Tablet," or more commonly known as a drawing tablet. It consists of a base plate that becomes the stage for the materials to be digitized; a small box mounted on that contains the X-axis potentiometer; an arm extending from that pot that has the Y-axis pot at its other end; and a second arm attached to the shaft of the Y-axis pot that has a hole drilled in the free end, which becomes the cursor. It connects to the Vic's game port. A crude, but effective way of getting graphical images into the Vic.

It depends what programming language you're using, of course. You may enjoy this:

See? No machine language anymore. It's like a lost art or something. Will machine language programmers become like the Ninja's of the computer world?

[ral-clan]

As for where to get the 80 column boards: Ebay. But be prepared to pay a lot. There's competition for those boards whenever they turn up. $40 to $50 US is a normal winning bid.

As for building that digitizer thing: unless you REALLY want to do that, why not just buy a Koala Pad for the VIC or Commodore 64 on Ebay. They usually sell for under $10, and are very well made.

The are essentially drawing tablets. Originally they were designed to go with the Dancing Bear cartridge for children, but they essentially output X and Y data like two paddle controllers (i.e. the two pot system in the design you mentied above).

They also look very nice, and you can draw on them with your finger, the tip of a pen, etc.

They are a little small (i.e. 8x8) and lo-res. But the VIC screen is lo-res anyway, so they are really perfect (plus they look nice). They also plug into the joystick port.

Here is a link to an image of the CoCo computer version (but the Commodore version looks the same - just has a regular Commodore joystick connector).

http://www.thecocolounge.com/images/65_ ... uchPad.jpg

[PaulQ]

As for where to get the 80 column boards: Ebay. But be prepared to pay a lot. There's competition for those boards whenever they turn up. $40 to $50 US is a normal winning bid.

Ouch. Still, a lot better than $299. I'll put it on my "Nice to have" list.

As for building that digitizer thing: unless you REALLY want to do that, why not just buy a Koala Pad for the VIC or Commodore 64 on Ebay. They usually sell for under $10, and are very well made.

Well, I wanted to build it for the same reason I want to use a Vic 20 when I could buy a Pentium-class computer with hard drive for $5 at the local Value Village. A Koala pad sounds great too; but I find making things myself to be quite rewarding on a deeply personal level.

Thanks for the Koala tip, though!

[Alan]

As for building that digitizer thing: unless you REALLY want to do that, why not just buy a Koala Pad for the VIC or Commodore 64 on Ebay. They usually sell for under $10, and are very well made.

The are essentially drawing tablets. Originally they were designed to go with the Dancing Bear cartridge for children, but they esentially output X and Y data like two paddes controller (i.e. the two pot system in the design you mentied above).

Is this the same Koala Pad made for the C64? I have one of those. I had no idea there was any VIC software for this thing. More info, please?

[carlsson]

Dancing Bear can be found on Zimmers' ftp, in /pub/cbm/vic20/roms/16k.

[Alan]

I have Dancing Bear on disk already.... but I could never figure out what it was supposed to be and never fooled around with it beyond a first glance.

[saundby]

In fact, I wonder, on a modern windows box, how big a program would be that simply scrolled "Hello World!" on the screen. On the VIC this would be only a few bytes long.

It depends what programming language you're using, of course. You may enjoy this:
http://www.infiltec.com/j-h-wrld.htm

The "Master Programmer" section really is how you'd do it in C++ with Microsoft Foundation Classes on Windows.

Quite honestly though, if all I needed to do was scroll text, I'd make a Powerpoint presentation.

I about bust a gut laughing at this. I noticed a flaw in the Master Programmer version, though. They failed to properly initialize the Pascal language subsystem before going on to invoke the MFC components that lie on top of it. Sure, this will run since the compiler will add the appropriate inits, but a Master Programmer never misses a chance to show that they have been programming Windows since 1.0 (the original box is on display in their cubicle to silence the doubters), that they know more about the underlying system than anyone else and that their code is incomprehensible, therefore they are indispensible and their decisions are unassailable.

-Mark G. (former Master Programmer.

[saundby]

As for building that digitizer thing: unless you REALLY want to do that, why not just buy a Koala Pad for the VIC or Commodore 64 on Ebay. They usually sell for under $10, and are very well made.

The are essentially drawing tablets. Originally they were designed to go with the Dancing Bear cartridge for children, but they esentially output X and Y data like two paddes controller (i.e. the two pot system in the design you mentied above).

Is this the same Koala Pad made for the C64? I have one of those. I had no idea there was any VIC software for this thing. More info, please?

Yes, it's the same as the C-64 Koala Pad. You can also use the Chalkboard Powerpad. I have one of these from a friend, and it works with the Koala Pad software just fine. It's just kind of large. However, if you hide the kiddy-style box and put an engineering-style overlay on it it looks like a _really_ expensive pro item.

-Mark G.