Exactly how NOT to make a multicart for the C64

[groepaz]

Sure... Jack Tramiel was one cut-throat businessman and yet every single VIC-20 and C64 cart that came out of Commodore while he was running the place had gold plating on the connector. You think he would have wasted the extra money it cost to have that ?
Every VIC-20, C64, SX-64 and PET user port, datasette port and IEEE-488 drive port were gold plated too. I'm sure it was all just for show...

another strawman. irrelevant. you are not going to post the link to back up your claim?

[Vic20-Ian]

As an electrical engineer who worked with UK Aerospace and Automotive system design and validation in Engine Management Systems we had specifications for pin to pin interfaces. Gold to Gold and Tin to Tin and not mixed.

Mixed pin material is not good and leads to microplating issues.

The issue is real as Eslapion says. No snake oil.

I have first hand experience of the issues it causes in reading sensors in cars and we revised the system validation procedures to prevent this in service.

It might not be safety critical in a Vic20 but it can be in other systems and leads to spurious signals.

https://www.microcontrollertips.com/gol ... -together/

"Gold-to-tin is not recommended as it is well know[n] that the reliability risk is greatly increased when these dissimilar metals are mated."

https://experience.molex.com/gold-or-ti ... d-and-tin/

Intel referenced - Micro fretting debris
http://advantagememory.com/Home_Page/Su ... ts_mak.htm

IEEE released paper - I don't have the full paper but the summary mentions enough

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/45 ... er=4550221

[MCes]

(using google translator)
what sadness,
first he says that HASL damages the connector of the C64 and then to prove it he says that someone has ruined... THE CARD!
meaningless speeches!
it is clear that he knows he is wrong but he would not say it even under torture ....
He can only deceive those who allow themselves to be hypnotized by some technical discourse that appears to be common sense, not others.
Never seen a roll of arrogance and complete absence of critical sense like this.
Another time he wasted the opportunity to keep silent ..... what a sadness!

@GROEPAZ,
remember that we are not the administrators of the forum, we have warned those who read these posts, it is not our job to waste time answering idiocies, personally I have more important things to do than clean up the vomit of a person who wants to be incontinent.

GOOD LUCK

[MCes]

@Vic20-Ian

from your link:
"The problem usually occurs over time and can be abated by removing the memory module and cleaning the contacts."

Each time that a card is removed/inserted the contacts are cleaned by the mechanical abrasion with the fiberglass exposed by the V-Cut.

Nobody says that HASL is better than GOLD, but to say that HASL damages the VIC20/C64 connector is bullshit!

[eslapion]

(using google translator)
what sadness,
first he says that HASL damages the connector of the C64 and then to prove it he says that someone has ruined... THE CARD!
meaningless speeches!
it is clear that he knows he is wrong but he would not say it even under torture ....
He can only deceive those who allow themselves to be hypnotized by some technical discourse that appears to be common sense, not others.
Never seen a roll of arrogance and complete absence of critical sense like this.
Another time he wasted the opportunity to keep silent ..... what a sadness!

@GROEPAZ,
remember that we are not the administrators of the forum, we have warned those who read these posts, it is not our job to waste time answering idiocies, personally I have more important things to do than clean up the vomit of a person who wants to be incontinent.

GOOD LUCK

Using HASL on edge connectors is bad for both the card and the receptacle.

Apparently every company in the world is wrong and you're right. ...and willing to defend your position with insults.
You tried that on Amibay and it didn't work too well.

Just search for 'edge connectors' in google images and every single one that comes up is gold plated, male or female. Everyone is wrong except you. Tell them: https://www.connectorsupplier.com/08071 ... onnectors/

Suddenly you no longer answer what I said about 74HC chips being a bad choice for electronic components used with Commodore computers.

[eslapion]

Nobody says that HASL is better than GOLD, but to say that HASL damages the VIC20/C64 connector is bullshit!

No it's not. Using capital letters, large typefaces, insults and degrading comments will not make you right.

Each time that a card is removed/inserted the contacts are cleaned by the mechanical abrasion with the fiberglass exposed by the V-Cut.

My Sony ɑ6300 camera can record in HD at 120 fps so why don't I check on that and post the result on YouTube ?

[MCes]

Using HASL on edge connectors is bad for both the card and the receptacle.

For our systems the sentence does not make sense and evidence has NEVER been provided: these machines have existed for decades and although HASL cartridges are a minority we should have a basket full of damaged and therefore replaced connectors, but this is not why what do you say is bullshit.
If I'm wrong, make me a list of users of this forum who have had their connerters ruined by the HASL finish.
I asked you years ago, I'm still waiting for the list.

You tried that on Amibay and it didn't work too well.

Another classic from he. : when he knows he's wrong he spits shit through allusions to things that, obviously, are not what he wants us to believe.
I may seem obnoxious, but I always offer the arguments of what I support, I don't hide behind the allusions, the slanders, that I let the cowards do.

Suddenly you no longer answer what I said about 74HC chips being a bad choice for electronic components used with Commodore computers.

I also believe that it is a good design rule to use HCT on these machines, as it is a good design rule not to boost the chip power supplies, as you do, even beyond the maximum allowed by the manufacturer data.
With the levels of the C64 chips, the Australian chips will also work, of course I would have used HCT to maintain greater immunity from noise, but it is a design choice that remains within the operating limits of the chips themselves.

[MCes]

http://sleepingelephant.com/ipw-web/bul ... 165#p98433
http://sleepingelephant.com/ipw-web/bul ... 180#p98469

[eslapion]

I also believe that it is a good design rule to use HCT on these machines,

Say what a change of heart all of a sudden...

.. as it is a good design rule not to boost the chip power supplies, as you do, even beyond the maximum allowed by the manufacturer data.

Hahum...

XC9536XL datasheet except

Somebody needs reading glasses. The kind without effect on ego.

You will NOT bully your dogmas onto me. No matter how disrespectful, impolite, attention seeking or hectic your posts may be.

Every time somebody says something you disagree with, you absolutely don't care for technical facts, you post insults, personal attacks, degrading comments and flamboyant texts until the thread gets closed and locked.

You are uncivilized and you should get banned from here as you almost were on Amibay and as I really hope you get on C16-Plus/4 forums where you do exactly the same thing to other people.

Added edit: After verification with the people at Xilinx, operating an XC9536XL with Vcc=3.8V will NOT cause damage to the device. However, it is not recommended because the response speed is then SLOWER than the rated specifications. Gee... isn't that exactly what I said last year ? Isn't that exactly what you want when using a modern IC to replicate the behavior of a 35 year old chip ?

[groepaz]

The issue is real as Eslapion says. No snake oil.

The snake oil remark referred to the tool that doesnt let him use the internet, not gold plated contacts. The same tool also reported VICE as a dangerous threat some time ago, thats how useless it is :=)

And all i said is that there were indeed quite some cartridges sold that had no gold plated contacts (just look at the pokefinder wiki) - i never claimed thats not the right thing to do, i know it is. That doesnt invalidate the fact that back in the days, it wasnt uncommon at all to have tin or plain copper contacts on cartridges. Yes not all had it. Yes it wasnt the "right thing to do". But thats all irrelevant to the fact it was done - and that it didnt kill expansion port connectors all over the place, other than requiring a bit of cleaning here and there every now and then. All that arguing about engineering and whatnot are strawman arguments irrelevant to that fact.

Oh, and i provided the link to the picture of the Cartridge, which he claimed does not exist. Still waiting for eslapions.

[eslapion]

The issue is real as Eslapion says. No snake oil.

The snake oil remark referred to the tool that doesnt let him use the internet, not gold plated contacts. The same tool also reported VICE as a dangerous threat some time ago, thats how useless it is :=)

And all i said is that there were indeed quite some cartridges sold that had no gold plated contacts (just look at the pokefinder wiki) - i never claimed thats not the right thing to do, i know it is. That doesnt invalidate the fact that back in the days, it wasnt uncommon at all to have tin or plain copper contacts on cartridges. Yes not all had it. Yes it wasnt the "right thing to do". But thats all irrelevant to the fact it was done - and that it didnt kill expansion port connectors all over the place, other than requiring a bit of cleaning here and there every now and then. All that arguing about engineering and whatnot are strawman arguments irrelevant to that fact.

Oh, and i provided the link to the picture of the Cartridge, which he claimed does not exist. Still waiting for eslapions.

If we go back to the start of the thread, I noticed a multicart available on eBay has 2 rather intempestive technical issues, the presence of logic ICs of the 74HC family which TI deems as incompatible with TTL level digital signaling and the absence of gold plating on the edge connector.

Then Mike asked if I had tried to contact the seller about these issues and I indicated I did not - I also mentioned why. Now there is the real point of that thread...

You acknowledge the HASL edge connector wasn't the 'right thing to do'. If I sell you a cart and I warn you in advance the edge connector isn't gold plated. THERE IS NO PROBLEM. There is no issue to discuss, I am being fair and honest with you. Sidenote: Yes it does gunk up cart port connectors but it take a mighty long time. It's not such a big deal.

The BIG DEAL is selling a cart like that without saying anything. Sometimes even purposely hiding the connector so the buyer doesn't know. Worst, we now officially have here a staunch defender of the notion that gold plating on edge connectors is useless...

first he says that HASL damages the connector of the C64 and then to prove it he says that someone has ruined... THE CARD!
meaningless speeches!
it is clear that he knows he is wrong but he would not say it even under torture ....
He can only deceive those who allow themselves to be hypnotized by some technical discourse that appears to be common sense, not others.

As for 'snake oil', yes, I have to concur with you that Norton does have a tendency to put its foot in it's own digital mouth when it comes to MALICIOUS sites. I just didn't have the energy to fight through the hurdles of unlocking access to said 'DANGEROUS' web page. I know for sure this place is neither malicious or dangerous. So I didn't claim it didn't exist. I just don't have access to it and I don't think it's a matter of life and death.

As for non gold plated carts, I have myself half a dozen prototypes or diagnostic carts which don't have gold plating and which I know will not be used too often. I don't offer them for sale and if I did, I would tell potential buyers about the caveat.

My issue is with people who do it a business to sell carts like that to the public and staunchly defend irresponsible business practices then go even as far as throwing insults and personal attacks then badmouth the products of those who uphold responsible commercial activity in the retrocomputing arena as some sort of vendetta. No, that's no you. We all know who that is.

[MCes]

Is Gold better than HASL? probably yes, for some employments gold is a must.
Do HASL damage the Commodore connector? absolutely FAKE.
I still waiting from Eslapion the list of user that had to replace the connector for this reason.
I never had to change my idea about this (2017):

Hasl, gold, hard gold.
Nothing of this are perfect...

For example in military/professional board (but also on the board inside your PC) the fingers of edge connections are not Hasl, because is needed to prevent false contact for oxidation, but this kind of connector are "not-movible": you connect it at starting life of the devices, and it remain fix for the life....
I never seen, in professional equipment, edge connectors used for movible connections! ( movible: hundreds of insertion during product-life)

For example a movible connections done with HARD GOLD could be dangerous: the hardest surface scratch the softest surface, so the hard gold pcb could scratch the metal part of connection inside the VIC20 connector...... do you want this?

If an HASL-finger could be oxidate it will be sufficient the normal insertion into connector to "scratch" the oxide into the point of contact.... the mobility of cart become the key to eliminate the false contact problem...

eslaption has a own IDEA on this, no more...
everybody can have an idea, but the "scientific method" need proof....
(link of somebody that ask himself the same question is not a proof, link at pages of who have market on this is not a proof, another point of view yes but not a proof)

I asked the names of the people that had own VIC20 damaged from cartridges HASL finisched, if I remember well I didn't get this list....

I know that it's right to use a proper family logic for guarantee the best noise immunity and the delay time specified on chips datas, but it don't imply that the "Australian" circuit can't work with HC family.
Also "TI" analyzes with Vt the circuit to understand if it could work or not:
page 11 (15th page): www.ti.com/lit/pdf/sdya009

So ....
is the HCT family the best choice? YES, but it doesn't imply that australian cartridge will having problems for this....

About Ego,
on Amybay a user tried to be elected as the censor of other people's projects, to that specific person who wanted to apply the "Eslapion approved" stamp to others' projects, in fact replied "NO, thank you".
Is Eslapion trying to do the same here?
http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?10 ... d-products

[beamrider]

Seems to me that the damage from HASL is theoretical rather than actual damage that can't be fixed by simple cleaning. Of course gold is preferable but a lot of things you can get away with that you really shouldn't do. I use a drop of dish washing liquid in the bucket to clean my car and have been told it can damage the paintwork but it seems fine to me.

Having said that if I were selling carts I'd use gold but I don't loose any sleep after playing on my HASL c&o cart.

[groepaz]

Seems to me that the damage from HASL is theoretical rather than actual damage that can't be fixed by simple cleaning.

It sure is. Just like using random logic chips in non critical places will often work ok. Yeah its not by the book - there is no point in even discussing that. Move on.

[eslapion]

I know that it's right to use a proper family logic for guarantee the best noise immunity and the delay time specified on chips datas, but it don't imply that the "Australian" circuit can't work with HC family.

Total tek-know-babel... you have NO IDEA what you're talking about.

In the case of the Australian multicart, it has nothing to do with noise immunity and everything to do with Vt being only a full 1V too high.

Also "TI" analyzes with Vt the circuit to understand if it could work or not:
page 11 (15th page): www.ti.com/lit/pdf/sdya009

Surprising... one step in the right direction. Maybe it's not hopeless.

BTW, if you look at that table, you should understand why Plazma's first version of his SRAM board for the C64 doesn't work well on boards 250466. The CASRAM signal is slowed down by an RC filter so the dt/dv is suddenly too high for 74F/74AHC(t)/74AC(T). The only 2 families which can take it correctly are 74HC (625 ns/V) and 74HCT (125ns/v).

I suggest you look at section 6.3

About Ego,
on Amybay a user tried to be elected as the censor of other people's projects, to that specific person who wanted to apply the "Eslapion approved" stamp to others' projects, in fact replied "NO, thank you".
Is Eslapion trying to do the same here?
http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?10 ... d-products

I started that thread because you're not the only one peddling flawed products. You're trying to make this about me because a lot of your half-truths and misconceptions are popular in the amateur electronics and retrocomputing arenas. It doesn't make them right.

Did you ever properly inform your buyers ? no.

Seems to me that the damage from HASL is theoretical rather than actual damage that can't be fixed by simple cleaning.

It sure is. Just like using random logic chips in non critical places will often work ok. Yeah its not by the book - there is no point in even discussing that. Move on.

The Super Snapshot V5.22 I bought from Joe Palumbo in 2007 seems to differ from you guys.

This is from another product but the effect was the same...