Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

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banman
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Re: Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

Post by banman »

Hi eslapion,


Absolutely, I had set out to improve my soldering skills by making C64 cartridges. The 8kB multi cartridge from Sukko Perra.

https://www.pcbway.com/project/sharepro ... __8K_.html

Go there you'll see me banging on about the cartridges. I also made up some Multi kernal replacement ROM PCB's.

https://www.pcbway.com/project/sharepro ... er_V2.html

I muffed that one up as you'll see in the photos. I fixed the other 3 up with the suitable precision turned socket pins. NOTE never use pin headers for inserting into the socket receptacles .... big no no....oops. :oops:

I fixed the first 2 up with a file!!! :twisted:


His stuff is actually very good and his documentation is excellent. :D



These cartridges and the ROM adapters holds 8 x 8kB ROM images. That is to say a 64kB EPROM . One needs to concatenate the 8 x 8kB files into 1 x 64kB file image to then be burnt on to the EPROM.
At that point I had absolutely no idea what that meant or how do it.

Some how I stumbled on to people talking about using EEPROM's as PLA's. I kept seeing 64kB file size and the chip I had.
In fact there was quite a deal of documentation and it just so happened that they had the same EPROM burner I had.

Then I thought it would be much easier to lay down one whole 64kB file with the burner.
I was using Winbond electrically erasable to start with. There were others were in the mail (cheap M27C512-90B6's - the picture on the web site was actually no reflection of what came).

Have a look! :shock:


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3296631 ... 4c4dGIvYof




I had a go at it and I seemed to create the chip image successfully. That's what the mini pro TL866 EPROM burner informed me.

I made the harness up. It wasn't a very good job.


Tested it and it worked....sort of...

I stumbled upon this site



https://www.hackup.net/2018/04/retro-repair-addendum-i/


I saw a comment from Mindflare Retro regarding his video. I went looking for it.

Mindflare Retro put me on to your site. I saw his video of your test circuit in operation.


I saw your posts about the ST M27C512-90B6 I had some of those. You may remember that this site had taken down the pic's of your original ST M27C512-90B6 PROMS down (as Luck would have it). I had some like yours or so I thought.


I gave one a go (not realizing they are OTP and not like yours). This one worked much better by a long shot..


An amazing story....But true!! :shock:





Oh ... I finally worked out how to concatenate multiple 8kB files - use HJSplit for Windows . It makes life very easy.....and be sure to print off Sukko Perra's ROM table for jumper settings for easy manipulation of the multi cartridge. Also make sure that each game image is exactly 8kB in size when joining.






Your PLA test circuit diagram is very unique. I have never come across anything even closely like it. I am sure many others haven't as well. That's most likely why I pursued it. I wondered what it could be...

I can only find that circuit diagram reference in the video. You will probably see that I just screen captured it of Mindflare Retro's video from my tablet. (Thank you Mindflare Retro :D ).
Last edited by banman on Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

Post by banman »

Hi eslapion and bdk6,


I have a question....


I just got an eBay message from Little_Diode in the UK regarding the 74HC279 Integrated Circuit for the upgrade on eslapion's PLA test circuit...

This is the picture sent sent me....
s-l1600  74HC279.jpg

Do you think this 74HC279 looks legitimate?


If it does I'll go ahead and order it...


Thanks for taking the time to help me out.... :D
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Re: Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

Post by bdk6 »

Hi banman,
I'm not really qualified to answer that question. It looks pretty legit to me, but that is really not saying much. The "chn" at the bottom almost certainly means made in China, but they probably have manufacturing plants there.
I did find this link that might be some use. Not the part asked about there also has "chn" on it:
https://community.st.com/s/question/0D5 ... rking-code

In response to your earlier question about what I did with my VIC, the answer is "not much." I only had it less than a year before I left for Germany and couldn't take it. I did manage to write a bare-bones assembler in BASIC that ran in the unexpanded RAM. It didn't have a symbol table. It was more like the assembler in a monitor. But now, I'm building a robot with the VIC, which was what I intended to do when I bought it.

About the chip, coming from the UK is a good sign, but no guarantee. I suspect eslapion can give better info.

EDIT: they do indeed have an assembly plant in China, but that doesn't guarantee it's legit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STMicroel ... bly_plants

EDIT AGAIN: Here is the ST datasheet http://noel.feld.cvut.cz/hw/st/1937.pdf
The date code is strange. (6401) Usually it is week for first two digits and year for second two. But a week of 64 makes no sense. The 01 would be 2001 which would make sense. I think that date code is diffferent. Not sure if it's valid or not.
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Re: Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

Post by banman »

Hi bdk6,


Thank you so much for that information. Especially the assembly plants information. :D



You may have solved a big suspicion I have been harboring regarding these knockoff (fake) ST M27C512-90B6 EPROMS we have been looking at.
IMG_20190518_102555 (1).JPG

Look carefully at the picture above of the known working PLA I have.

I noticed Korea wasn't mentioned at all..






Yes , I agree the date code does look a little odd. I cant quite work it out either.

The package numbering ....B1 tally's with the description on the data sheet however.

I registered with the ST community forum you kindly found for me.... Many thanks.


I posted a few queries....


Nice work Sherlock! :D
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eslapion
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Re: Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

Post by eslapion »

banman wrote:I saw your posts about the ST M27C512-90B6 I had some of those. You may remember that this site had taken down the pic's of your original ST M27C512-90B6 PROMS down (as Luck would have it). I had some like yours or so I thought.


I gave one a go (not realizing they are OTP and not like yours). This one worked much better by a long shot..
The M27C512-90B6 is "One Time Programmable". So 'not like yours' ??
Your PLA test circuit diagram is very unique. I have never come across anything even closely like it. I am sure many others haven't as well. That's most likely why I pursued it. I wondered what it could be...

I can only find that circuit diagram reference in the video. You will probably see that I just screen captured it of Mindflare Retro's video from my tablet. (Thank you Mindflare Retro :D ).
As I said, I created that schematics in the summer of 2015.

I actually had to use something similar in my digital design university course in 2003 to detect static hazards in a completely different circuit. Kinda gave me the idea to detect these hazards on the PLA.

About your 74HC279, the high contrast markings on it is pretty much a guarantee this is a fake chip. Thay may have grabbed just about any 74_279 IC and rebranded it that way. So there is no telling what the real manufacturer was and exactly what logic family this chip is from. Is it a 74LS, 74HCT, 74HC, 74C and so on.
You may have solved a big suspicion I have been harboring regarding these knockoff (fake) ST M27C512-90B6 EPROMS we have been looking at.
Genuine ST M27C512-90B6 sold by Mouser between 2008 and 2011 all have the country of origin coded TWN or Taiwan. They were made through TSMC which is mentioned in the Wikipedia article. The country of original is always a 3 letter code on this family of products and China isn't valid.
Last edited by eslapion on Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

Post by banman »

Hi eslapion,

eslapion wrote:The M27C512-90B6 is "One Time Programmable". So 'not like yours' ??
Oops apologies for the typo.. :oops:


It should have read:

I gave my one a go (not realizing they are OTP , like yours). This one worked much better by a long shot..

I was typing too fast...





:D
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Re: Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

Post by banman »

Hi eslapion,

Thank you for your opinion on the 74HC279 Integrated Circuit.



I will continue to have a look around .. I still have some more avenues let to me...... :)
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Re: Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

Post by eslapion »

banman wrote:I will continue to have a look around .. I still have some more avenues let to me...... :)
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/401598585638
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Re: Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

Post by banman »

Hi eslapion,


Thanks for looking around.. :D

.

This is the guy "little_diode" who sent this pic in response to my query.

s-l1600  74HC279.jpg
https://www.ebay.ca/usr/littlediode_com ... 7675.l2559


That's all he had I think.....
Last edited by banman on Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

Post by eslapion »

banman wrote:This one looks good to me....


https://www.ebay.ca/itm/SN74HC540N-CI-n ... 100623.m-1


Thank you! :D
That's HC540, not 279 !!
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Re: Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

Post by banman »

Hi eslapion,


Oops, you are right.. I just re edited the comment.


Apologies for that..... :oops:
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Re: Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

Post by banman »

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Re: Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

Post by eslapion »

Unfortunately, concerning the question of genuine or fake/rebranded ICs, I have to say there are other forums more directly related to this specific topic.

I would prefer to keep this thread specifically about using (E)PROMs as replacements for the Programmable Logic Array 906114-01 of the C64 and the related challenges and hurdles.
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Re: Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

Post by banman »

Hi eslapion,


I agree.

Apologies for getting off topic.
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Re: Not quite... The end of the ROM based PLA for the 64

Post by banman »

Hi eslapion and bdk6,

I had an interesting observation.


I hooked up my logic probe to a !ROML take off along side the Texas Instruments 74LS279 Quad S-R Latch I have installed in eslapions's circuit and noticed that I could detect the glitches in TTL mode and CMOS mode.

I did the same on a subsequent run on the !ROMH line.

In TTL mode it seems to trigger more with a known bad Winbond EEPROM PLA substitute than the Texas Instruments 74LS279 Quad S-R Latch I have installed in eslapions's circuit. No doubt due to the Texas Instruments 74LS279 Quad S-R Latch's characteristics. Actually the logic probe flashes quite a bit.

All I can imagine is the images on your oscilloscope and the wave forms that were produced on the incompatible PLA.


In TTL mode no triggering occurs with the knockoff (fake ST M27C512-90B6) PLA substitute and the Commodore Factory PLA.

However, in CMOS mode every PLA tested pulses.....

Even the Commodore factory PLA pulsed in CMOS mode as much as the PLA substitutes....
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