New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

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orion70
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby orion70 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:04 pm

Guys, not again. Please.

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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby eslapion » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:50 pm

groepaz wrote:i know at least one guy who purchased them directly from you and well... they didnt.

Code: Select all

<xxx4711> so, the plas he made he attributes not succeeding to groepaz, I have 4 of them, none work in any of my 64s....
<xxx4711> but, blame groepaz i guess...

Strange. I guarantee everything I sell. In fact, I eagerly pursue people who get malfunctions with my products as it allows me to make improvements.

You don't identify who had these problems. Does this person really exist or are you simply throwing gossip?

Also, I made it clear PLAkate (my version of the M27C512-90B6 with adapter and voltage reducer) will only function properly on boards 250425, 250466 and the SX-64. If this person tried to get it running on boards 326298 or 250407 then it is pretty much guaranteed there will be problems.

You don't mention who the person is nor the exact type of board on which he tried to use the product is supposedly sold him.

I also find it rather suspicious this person would openly post what I sold him has problems but never attempted to contact me to get some form of remedy. I am not exactly difficult to get in touch with.

The above changes nothing to the fact 'zero-x' used a fake chinese PROM to try to prove the product I sell (or the M27C512-90B6 I suggested people buy with no profit at all to myself... mind you) had technical issues. Genuine ST M27C512-90B6 as well as the products I sold do not generate bus contentions or glitches, plain and simple.
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby groepaz » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:14 pm

You don't identify who had these problems. Does this person really exist or are you simply throwing gossip?

i can assure you he exists. and no, i am (unlike you in your presentation...) not dropping names here - since he doesnt want to get involved at all.

Code: Select all

<xxx4711> I bought 2, they didnt work, he sent two more, same story


Genuine ST M27C512-90B6 ... do not generate bus contentions or glitches, plain and simple.

you simply cant guarentee this. it may be true for a certain batch of chips that you have seen and checked, but thats it. no more no less. its not a property designed into the chip.

but yeah. sorry orion70. shouldnt have answered at all. its a hopeless exercise anyway.

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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby eslapion » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:56 pm

groepaz wrote:
Genuine ST M27C512-90B6 ... do not generate bus contentions or glitches, plain and simple.

you simply cant guarentee this.

Yes, I can.
it may be true for a certain batch of chips that you have seen and checked, but thats it. no more no less.

No it's not. All the chips I bought from 2008 to 2011 had the same characteristics. They didn't all come from the same batch.

its not a property designed into the chip.

Yes it is. The M27C512-90B6 has a very low slew rate. If you check the datasheet, ST purposely omitted to mention the rise/fall rate on signaling. It is easy to check on an oscilloscope.

The consequence is very simple, the glitches and possible bus contentions are just plain filtered out.

In fact, the little brother of the M27C512-90B6, the M27C256B-90B6 has exactly the same output properties. I used a pair of them, stacked on top of one another along with a 74HCT14 hex inverter. The hex inverter was used not only to select which PROM to activate, I also used a pair of inverters to create a delay on CASRAM. The result is a PLA substitute which looks like basement tinkering junkbut works perfectly well on all C64 boards with a 28 pin PLA, including the old ones.

Meet sPLAtt :
102_0805.JPG

102_0806.JPG


This ugly contraption works as well as a genuine Commodore PLA on all C64 boards with 28 pin PLAs but it consumes only about 15mA. It's even better than PLAnkton because it consumes even less power but it's ugly looking and it's too tall to fit in C64c cases.

Anyways, what are you arguing about ? You won! You wanted to deprive the Commodore community of the 1$ PLA and you succeeded. Why argue now?

groepaz wrote:
You don't identify who had these problems. Does this person really exist or are you simply throwing gossip?

i can assure you he exists. and no, i am (unlike you in your presentation...) not dropping names here - since he doesnt want to get involved at all.

Code: Select all

<xxx4711> I bought 2, they didnt work, he sent two more, same story

The only product for which I sent replacement like that and the replacement did not remedy the problem is with Amiga 3000 logic ICs. I refunded the customer and discontinued the product. Absolutely nothing to do with Commodore 64 PLAs.
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby norm8332 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:28 pm

groepaz is your troll eslapion, best just to ignore him. He is just trying to get you riled up. We know PLAnkton is the best PLA substitute. No need to rehash the past.

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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby MCes » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:44 am

norm8332 wrote:groepaz is your troll eslapion, best just to ignore him. He is just trying to get you riled up. We know PLAnkton is the best PLA substitute. No need to rehash the past.


reporting fact = troll

strange equations....


eslapion wrote:
groepaz wrote:i know at least one guy who purchased them directly from you and well... they didnt.

Code: Select all

<xxx4711> so, the plas he made he attributes not succeeding to groepaz, I have 4 of them, none work in any of my 64s....
<xxx4711> but, blame groepaz i guess...

(...)

You don't identify who had these problems. Does this person really exist or are you simply throwing gossip?

(...)


strange,
I'm still waiting the list of people that had own vic20 damaged from HASL finished cartridges... who is making gossip?

Sorry, I forgot that the physical law is applicable only for the projects that Eslapion decide...
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby MCes » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:37 am

Each eprom datasheet declare the output stable until the input vector is stable.
If one input line change, then immediately all output have to be considered indeterminated and need wait the access time to guarantee the right outputs.
During the cycle time of the C64 (when are needed stable PLA outputs..) the signals feeded to PLA change: the CAS signal, but also some cartidges change EXROM GAME to test the state of the system...
It means that during C64 cycles the output stability is NOT guaranteed by EPROM manufacturers, ST too!
If the project is based on a not specified characteristic, It means that the next lot of chips can don't work and it will be esponsability of the project , not of the chip manufacturer.
It means that the project life is limited, time by time, at the presence of this not guaranteeded peculiarity in the chips lot buyed.....
It means that I find this a bad project, a solution not acceptable and don't care if some/a lot of pieces of them are working: it remain a bad project like plankton is.
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby eslapion » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:25 am

MCes wrote:reporting fact = troll

strange equations....

I don't see any 'facts' from you. I see 'alternative facts'... :lol:

Sorry, I forgot that the physical law is applicable only for the projects that Eslapion decide...

The laws of physics apply all the time and everywhere but you only see the ones you like.

Such as this one...
plakton2.JPG


Page 1 of the datasheet of the XC9536XL says Icc is dependent on the system frequency (that's fixed in a C64), the number of macrocells used (0 in the case of PLAnkton), the number of product terms and output loading. The CPLD on PLAnkton is set to operate only in low power mode so the HS terms are all 0.

See "power estimation": https://www.xilinx.com/support/document ... /ds058.pdf

Since PLAnkton uses combinatorial logic, all of these are fixed, they never change. However, the biggest loading attached to the CPLD on PLAnkton is the RC capacitor used to generate the CASRAM latency. When I told you the energy stored in a capacitor is E=0.5xCxV^2, you laughed at it.

I suppose Wikipedia is a source of disinformation then... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor ... _capacitor

There is a difference between ignorance, where education can make a difference and willful ignorance.

It means that the project life is limited, time by time, at the presence of this not guaranteeded peculiarity in the chips lot buyed.....

If that is so then how come both the M27C512-90B6 as well as the M27C256B-90B6 both have this low slew rate which makes them suitable for use as a C64 PLA ? They're not from the same batch... they're not even the same IC!!

BTW, If you have followed what is discussed here, you'd have noticed both the M27C512-90B6 and the M27C256B-90B6 are discontinued since 2011. So I'd say you have a rather moot point.
Last edited by eslapion on Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby mrr19121970 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:00 am

eslapion wrote:Meet sPLAtt :
102_0805.JPG

102_0806.JPG


This ugly contraption works as well as a genuine Commodore PLA on all C64 boards with 28 pin PLAs but it consumes only about 15mA. It's even better than PLAnkton because it consumes even less power but it's ugly looking and it's too tall to fit in C64c cases.


It is f'ugly, not just ugly. But why but hide the 'bug' underneath ?

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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby eslapion » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:22 am

mrr19121970 wrote:It is f'ugly, not just ugly. But why but hide the 'bug' underneath ?

What bug ? This is a stack of 3 ICs; 2 M27C256B-90B6 and one 74HCT14 which is responsible for selecting which PROM is to be active since each contain only half the truth table.

The whole thing is put on top of a pair of 0.1" pin headers since a wire must be soldered directly to the socket. I can't just float a wire in mid-air.

The point is: don't be shallow because this bizarre contraption does exactly what it should do - It meets all the requirements to be a perfectly reliable PLA on all C64 boards with a 28 pin PLA and it will not heat.

Want one?
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby mrr19121970 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:49 am

I referred to the 74HCT14 hex inverter as a BUG (as in these cases to reduce the height you would mount it 'dead bug style' with the legs up).

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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby eslapion » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:02 am

mrr19121970 wrote:I referred to the 74HCT14 hex inverter as a BUG (as in these cases to reduce the height you would mount it 'dead bug style' with the legs up).

You said:
But why but hide the 'bug' underneath ?

But I think you meant to say:
But why not hide the 'bug' underneath ?

That's because wiring would have been more complex.

Since the PROMs have the power lines GND to lower left and Vcc to upper right, you want the logic IC to have them in the same orientation. Also, the lower PROM can have the connections direct to the socket; it's the top one which requires one of the activation lines inverted (pin 22).
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby MCes » Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:29 am

Eslaption read of a datasheet only the single line that (apparently) is not in contrast with it's own project! very funny!

Normally TTL chips and memory chips of C64 need a nominal voltage of supply of 5V, the most restrictive chip into C64 indicate that the performance are guarantee inside the "Recommended Operating Conditions" from 4,75 to 5,25Vcc, over 5,25V the specifics of chips (life lenght too) is not guarantee,and over the limit of 7V "Absolute Maximum Ratings" the devices can die immediately.

It means that a motherboard of C64 could be NORMALLY supplied with 5,25V (measured on CHIPs) without exit from "Recommended Operating Conditions", only who don't have heart health problem can supply it to 7V....

Eslapion can tell BLA BLA BLA, but only who don't know the electronics can be hypnotized from this kind of "scientology arguments".

BLA BLA = value ZERO,
If eslapion trust in it's opinion he can supply a C64 with 5,25V (or 7V) mesuring this voltage between pin 14 and 28 of the plankton and posting the pics of relative measuring of the Vcc onto CPLD inside the plankton....

After we will have on an hand the CPLD datasheet and into the other hand the measuring from the real world, so we will have something to comment...

but I think that Eslaption will find a motive to elude this... like as some sellers on ebay: "It work but I can't proof this becouse I live without elettricity in my house"
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby eslapion » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:07 pm

MCes wrote:Normally TTL chips and memory chips of C64 need a nominal voltage of supply of 5V, the most restrictive chip into C64 indicate that the performance are guarantee inside the "Recommended Operating Conditions" from 4,75 to 5,25Vcc, over 5,25V the specifics of chips (life lenght too) is not guarantee,and over the limit of 7V "Absolute Maximum Ratings" the devices can die immediately.

It means that a motherboard of C64 could be NORMALLY supplied with 5,25V (measured on CHIPs) without exit from "Recommended Operating Conditions", only who don't have heart health problem can supply it to 7V....

Eslapion can tell BLA BLA BLA, but only who don't know the electronics can be hypnotized from this kind of "scientology arguments".

Look. It's not my fault if you're ignorant.

You have a point? Do like I did, take out a good scope, logic analyzer or multimeter and bring the data.

Also, for the love of god, write in a readable English.
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby MCes » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:24 pm

eslapion wrote:Look. It's not my fault if you're ignorant.

not enough to trust in you


I was sure: Eslapion escape from testing the own project....


I have problem with the English, you with people that you try to trick!

P.S.
in wich product of yours I can find my name and a honey words?

RHddDH9.jpg


pic from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofg33zk9uCA
Last edited by MCes on Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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