Tips on moving to Linux?

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Vic 2000
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?

Post by Vic 2000 »

groepaz wrote:no, try to do the same thing with windows. good luck.
And why would anyone want to do that? Most people just want to run and go, no more then that. Use of terminal and CLI is out of the question for at least 95% (or more) of todays computer users. Just click the mouse, and if it's more complicated then that, it's certanly no mainstream OS.
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?

Post by rhurst »

I'll take ownership of mine:
Vic20-Ian wrote:2. Try a different distribution of Linux - implies that the first thing to do if you have a problem is uninstall your OS and install a new one - not at all time consuming.
If you reflect on your responses you will see why the uninitiated who try and learn about Linux struggle and feel that the community is somewhat obtuse to newcomers.
Huh? Actually, it's not time consuming at all. I re-installed Windows XP in advance of 4/8 and I had the SP CD-ROMs. It chugged happily away with several re-boots required. Unless you are recompiling a custom Linux kernel on the target machine, a distro takes minutes to install, but I gathered you were not doing anything so complicated. Hey, a solution that works for one person does not mean it's the solution for you. And that can be said in reciprocal.
Vic20-Ian wrote:Q1. Do I need console mouse support to run from Command Line Interface?
A CLI question on the Linux console is a different thing than when referenced with running an app off a shell (local or remote) or off an X terminal (local or remote). I was not being obtuse to the question posed. I did not probe or refine my answer any, because you were working with a Raspberry Pi, the most modest of hardware platforms, and it is typical to not run any graphical environment on such. If your platform was like this thread's XP era workstation, I would have challenged you upfront to use a lightweight X desktop (as was done previously).
Vic20-Ian wrote:I will update if I decide to try adding mouse support in console and get it working there as well.
Please do. Crusty old GPM is your best bet, and since you revealed that you can compile code, DIY.
Vic20-Ian wrote:Why is this not mentioned in the run the demo code web page? It assumes everyone starting the Raspberry Pi in X Windows which is not the default at install, though it is an option. As all the programs are run from commands rather than an icon on the desktop Linux causes this problem
Now here is where we get into trouble. You need to take some accountability here, yourself. I don't know anything about this "demo code web page" referenced, but I do know most OSS projects of this sort (DIY download & compile) have little to do with Linux or Linux documentation. It's the distro and its end user who chooses what installation options the distro offers. The distro offers software (aka desktop(s), apps, toolchains, etc.) in the form of packaging. Those packages are maintained with their own set of documentation (README, HOWTO, man, etc.) and usually with a link back to the project page. It's not as complicated as you're making it, but with ownership comes accountability.

And you did exactly this!! 8) For example, "Running a terminal from CLI prompt vs. running in an LX Terminal should not cause a program to run differently in my opinion or there should be a warning or clearer instructions on the webpage."

ANSWER: "The rather obscure answer about console terminal not being needed much anymore led me to work this out but I could have given up."

You could have easily dispensed with the whining here, and instead grow from the experience we all have undergone, aka the frustration-awe, enlightenment, doh! :wink:

The same accountability applies to such fundamentals as to how to use cd, cat, more, vi, ls, mv, rm, top, mkdir, rmdir, etc. My "Linux" has 3360 commands I can launch from a CLI (not all console capable, mind you, I cannot launch firefox without an X interface), and that's only counting /usr/bin and /usr/sbin executables.

Yeah, you got a lot to explore and learn first yourself. Does that really bother you learning something new? Fortunately, you can draw upon your computer experiences, so those hurdles should not be an issue as if you were starting anew, right? Go for it!
Vic20-Ian wrote:In my view if Linux users offered others more straight and sensible answers than e.g. change to another OS, then Linux uptake would improve.
You are entitled to your opinion, but last I checked, Linux is doing just fine; sorry, that cannot be said for all the disparate distros out there. Many have come and gone; it's the circle of life in this world. That's why you might stumble across a term called OSS, and it is about free as in choice, not beer.
Vic20-Ian wrote:Posting here on the friendly computer forum I thought would yield slightly better answers. Put your Vic hat on top of your Linux ones guys ;-)
I can appreciate that, too, but can you appreciate where you were at, what you have learned, and now look at the question posed? I doubt you could have asked it any better, then, but can you see any of the points thrown back at you now as being not as unfriendly as you are suggesting? Food for thought, my friend.
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?

Post by rhurst »

Vic 2000 wrote:Just click the mouse, and if it's more complicated then that, it's certanly no mainstream OS.
Your "tip" on moving to Linux, then, is to not to, because of this use-case. OK, amen to that. For users.

There are many mainstream Linux-based distros (not OS) that happily do that, despite the fact that there is essentially no commercial value for it in personal computing. Imagine that? Yet, they exist. A lot of charitable people must have a lot of time and money on their hands, eh? Now, there is this thing called Android you might have heard of, but that's not really made for personal computers, yet it seems to be everywhere. :wink:

For the rest of us (enthusiasts, engineers, and developers), Linux is as mainstream as it is going to get when you speak of just an OS. I don't know of too many enterprises (you know, where the billions are spent?) that don't install, i.e., Windows Server on top of a Linux-based hypervisor, in order: VMware, KVM, Zen, and the others. We then run our point-and-click choice of OS as a virtual guest. Must be something to that.
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Vic 2000
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?

Post by Vic 2000 »

rhurst wrote:For the rest of us (enthusiasts, engineers, and developers), Linux is as mainstream as it is going to get when you speak of just an OS.
You said it yourself.

Agreed.

I use android too an think that Google made an awesome job creating a powerful and very easy to use operating system that even outclasses iPhone in many areas.

I want some power too as a computer veteran but most people just don't bother, all they want is to click and run, and that's because...in the old days you bought a computer because of interest in computers, today you buy a computer to watch YouTube, sending mails and visit Facebook.
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?

Post by Vic20-Ian »

I am not an expert but I am fairly accomplished with IT including some coding in Assembler, Basic, Pascal, Delphi. I have dual and triple booted PC into various operating systems but admit Windows has mostly done the job for work and home use.

Linux is doing great, undisputed.

It is however doing best when hidden from view by other interfaces - e.g. Android hides it well. Underneath other systems that face the user as you mentioned. Why is that?

It is not doing so great in the mainstream desktop - try and buy a retail Linux PC in PC World (UK) or Best Buy in USA. They might if forced offer to uninstall Windows, wipe partitions and void your warranty or maybe at a stretch dual boot setup but I am more than 99% certain (for the UK) that you could not walk in, open your wallet and walk out with one.

The Raspberry Pi - I think you underestimate it - is trying to overcome that. It is launching a programming revolution in the UK. It boots to a full desktop, can run Libre Office etc. Scratch is pre installed as is Python. It will run Pentium 2 equivalent software, many emulators for Mame, 8 and 16 bit machines and consoles. If supported well it will create a generation of Linux aware users. The Hello_Teapot example is pretty impressive rotating a 3D model while playing a video on the surface all on a $35 computer.

The Open Source Software was included in the Raspbian install. I did not download it in addition though I have done this for Synaptic Package manager and some other software.

I am disappointed that the instructions here http://www.raspberrypi.org/learning/demo-programs/ tell you to compile and run the demo software from the command line (forgive me if I used Console / Shell / Terminal incorrectly by interchanging them) and not in an X Windows terminal.

This works for all except Step 6 Hello Triangle 2 - no mouse support as we discussed.

In my original post I offered a Dos analogy for a solution - find a mouse driver for use in console. I tried to solve the problem myself and I think I was right.

My frustration was with the incorrect instructions and not finding much in the forums.

If this demo is a first thing to try as it was for me it should be or could be better.

If your answer had been clearer along the lines of Try running in LX terminal in X Windows or yes, you are right you need mouse support try GPM I would have had more confidence, and enthusiasm for the Linux community than I do now.

I still do not understand the whole ditch your distribution and try another one approach - maybe that is the beauty of Linux I am yet to appreciate. I am maybe too used to having just Windows as an OS with a driver issue I have to solve, replacing or reinstalling the OS was always the last option. Refresh Win 8, update then do 8.1 upgrade - that takes a day.

I have to say I have had more mileage with Shareware in Dos and Windows with better documentation than I have had in Linux so far.

I am always keen to learn and tinker with technology. This week I have been rebuilding my network to use a second older router to run the wifi as an AP as the main router wifi is failing until I can get a replacement from the Internet Service Provider.

Next few days I will return for another slice of Pi and Linux and fun like in the 8 bit era.

No hard feelings but the Linux community could be more straightforward.

Best regards,
Ian
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?

Post by groepaz »

No hard feelings but the Linux community could be more straightforward.
its not linux - its simply that you are trying to do something that is _not_ straightforward to begin with.
I'm just a Software Guy who has no Idea how the Hardware works. Don't listen to me.
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?

Post by rhurst »

Raspberry Pi, ARM, and Atom are (in some way) all in competition with each other. Only Atom is straightforward, followed by ARM, then Raspberry Pi when it comes to Linux. Raspberry Pi is not popular in the US, and is only looked at for what it was attempting to achieve: an entry-level educational computer kit. Something akin to the 1970s.

I gathered that you are technically inclined, but you did pick a tough platform to start out with Linux. Glad you made the progress _and_ you did it mostly with self-help, the best way to learn. Have you tried any Intel Linux? Even as a VM?
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?

Post by rhurst »

Read about this distro from Commodore Free #79, but it is only available for registered users for the Raspberry Pi version. The listed benefits on its front page are compelling, especially for those modest platforms, and should be very comfortable to use by Amigans.

Perhaps ral-clan might give this one a try on his XP era machine and write about it? :wink:
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?

Post by Vic20-Ian »

rhurst wrote:Raspberry Pi, ARM, and Atom are (in some way) all in competition with each other. Only Atom is straightforward, followed by ARM, then Raspberry Pi when it comes to Linux. Raspberry Pi is not popular in the US, and is only looked at for what it was attempting to achieve: an entry-level educational computer kit. Something akin to the 1970s.

I gathered that you are technically inclined, but you did pick a tough platform to start out with Linux. Glad you made the progress _and_ you did it mostly with self-help, the best way to learn. Have you tried any Intel Linux? Even as a VM?

By ARM and ATOM do you mean the family of processors used in netbooks etc. or a specific low power, small form factor, single board computer like Raspberry Pi?

Raspberry Pi is not popular in the US - is that because it is British? :wink:

Why is Raspberry Pi a tough platform, it would be interesting to understand the issues you would list? I would be interested to ask you as a Linux expert try one out and review it and the limitations. As it can run X Windows I am not sure the limitations make the platform so tough, I would be interested in you expanding this point.

Raspberry Pi is achieving a restart of interest in programming, coding clubs in schools etc. especially in Python and also in electronics and robotics due to the expandability. I am quite impressed by what it can do. You can set the thing up as a web server, run time lapse photography, log into it remotely over the internet. As a platform to kickstart invention it is pretty good. Plug it into the TV with a keyboard, program something, add some hardware and a battery pack and set it loose on the world. At a future point, unhook the Pi and reuse for another project or buy a new Pi for $35 for the next project.

Being Linux based it can only help Linux become seen as a viable alternative to Windows and OSX. (In the UK we weirdly have primary schools with Macs then Intel Windows PCs in secondary schools. In the last few years IT has focused on using a desktop with little Computer Science, a return to coding skills is needed. Raspberry Pi, Arduino and others are starting to find their way into the design and technology subjects which my son is interested in.

I have run Linux on Intel as a dual boot to my windows desktop to try out in various flavours in the past e.g. Mint, Ubunto and also one or 2 live CDs. This has been as a result of magazine disks etc. I have then deleted it at points where I have not got the time to resolve something annoying like having run a package manager, done the updates, downloaded a media player and dependencies and have it fail to compile due to missing files. I also have an Open Pandora running Linux (Arch based I think) that gets tinkered with from time to time. I have a 3 year old laptop I could now dedicate to running Linux rather than Windows so might do that soon - what flavour would you recommend and why?

Next steps with the Pi - working on some Python code for a Space Invader type game with help from a magazine tutorial and maybe a small hardware project.
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?

Post by Vic20-Ian »

rhurst wrote:Read about this distro from Commodore Free #79, but it is only available for registered users for the Raspberry Pi version. The listed benefits on its front page are compelling, especially for those modest platforms, and should be very comfortable to use by Amigans.

Perhaps ral-clan might give this one a try on his XP era machine and write about it? :wink:

This looks pretty good, I will try a version when I find a spare SD card and report back ;-)
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?

Post by rhurst »

Haha, no, it's not a British thing. Now if it were French, well... :wink:

I think your pursuits, objectives, and methods are all sound: learning a scripting language today (Perl, Python, Ruby) has so much more potential, on any platform too, than what we had growing up in the late 70s / early 80s. And you still have access to Java, Mono, and Gambas for more 'traditional' app development from what had started in the 1990s with bytecode interpreters and JIT compiling. Hard-core (and cranky) coders like myself just can't shake ourselves away from C/C++. :lol:

I live in a small capital city in the smallest State of the Union, whereas I work in a large capital city immersed with world-class technology and healthcare. In both demographics, I have seen zero interest in Raspberry Pi (ages 7 - 70) beyond the stated entry-level kit for educational / hobby purposes. Nothing wrong with that, but phone/pad apps and Wearable Intelligence consumes everyone's attention around here.

Wearing my retrocomputing bias, I toyed with the idea of doing stuff with Raspberry Pi myself. But with its introduction came a complex toolchain to cobble together before you could do any development. I suppose that has changed some with Linux distros supporting that arch, meaning better software integration and less complexity to the end user. And with maturing projects like Aeros and Commodore Pi springing up, it spells good news, right, but beyond that for broader interest and sustainability ... I don't know, except truth happens.

Atom works out-of-the-box with any Intel-based Linux distro, and while its initial entry cost is only slightly higher, it also comes on a variety of mobo and fitted form factors. Intel is invested heavily into Linux development, basically gave away huge R&D on its graphics subsytem (GEM and drm), giving them the early edge with their GPUs (low cost, high performance) and challenging AMD Radeon and nVidia to play catchup. Everyone in the Linux space benefited by their contributions (see here and here).

ARM does to Atom what AMD Opteron did to Intel Xeon in the mid-2000s, but never underestimate that giant. I wish I purchased a small stash of these D525 mobos; it's what I run my web site on now, and it's simply wonderful for 1970/80/90 emulation. Netbooks were a short fad and, no, I never considered one.

I prefer Red Hat Linux distros. Professionally, I implemented Mandrake in the mid 1990s and large SuSE solutions 10-years ago. I introduced Ubuntu into our Harvard University medical community here (they were thinking Gentoo was the way to go), and they love it; but they also love Apple products, haha, so what do they know? But through all of it, I have used Red Hat personally and, of course, professionally.

Hope that answers some of what you asked, a little about me on my interests and opinions in the low-powered platform space.
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?

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I've been using a chromebook all year with great ease. :)


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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?

Post by rhurst »

I was thinking about getting one of those for myself, but then work supplied me with a new laptop. I added an extra 128gb M/SATA drive for $100 to dual boot into Linux, and I got nothing more to fuss about. :P
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?

Post by Vic20-Ian »

Robert - adding the GPM support allowed that Hello_Triangle2.bin program to work correctly from the command prompt.

"sudo apt-get update" then "sudo apt-get install gpm" added the mouse cursor under terminal prompt and the program runs with mouse control without X.

I also installed open-elec on the Rasberry Pi today and played a video from my network drive and also some live streams from Nasa TV.

I logged into the Pi from my laptop using Putty with SSH and ran a few commands to download a file while a film was playing on the TV - unfortunately the file would not install afterwards into Open Elec / XBMC but that is for another debugging session.

Quite a powerful little machine running off a USB power supply.
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Re: Tips on moving to Linux?

Post by rhurst »

Good to hear that the app took to GPM. 8)

Yeah, it's a cool device with a plethora of uses and projects out there. I just wouldn't oversell it anymore than beyond that; it's not a game-changer. When you read about Intel's microserver, you will only see such comparisons in that space between Atom and ARM.

P.S., Moonshot anyone? :wink:
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