The poor forgotten Commodore 128

[eslapion]

I recently managed to get my hands on a very nice Commodore 128D. Since I also happend to have a 512k expander, I figured, the combination of both should result in what could probably be called the most powerful vintage 8 bit system ever made.

But I am amazed at one thing. There is so few truly powerful hardware and software for such a system.

Sure there is GEOS that can make it behave like a less powerful Macintosh Plus but apart from that and the applications designed for it, what is there ?

The first thing that came to my mind as the dream application for the 128, since I still use my old C64 and Jason-Ranheim Promenade to burn EPROMs, is to have the ability to record EPROMs with a slightly modified Promande that could take chips up to 4Mbit (512kBytes). Maybe even 8Mbit if done in two passes and a switch.

And I know there would be very little difference from a hardware point of view because the Vpp pins for chips 1Mbit-8Mbit are at the same locations as for chip of capacities from 16kbit to 512kbit. All it would take is 4 extra address lines and a ZIF socket of 32 pins instead of 28.

Anyways, this is only one example of the great things that could have been made for the 128.

By all means, if you know of great applications (excluding word processors and games, thank you) that you think I should be informed of, let me know.

Also, apart from the 512k expander, is there any hardware add-on that was developped specifically for the 128 ? I have a Mach 128 cartridge here...

Is there, for example, a product that allows you to connect a hard drive to a C128 ? I mean one that existed when the 128 was still available in stores.

[Boray]

http://cmdrkey.com/cbm/supercpu/index.htm

http://cmdrkey.com/cbm/prodinfo/cmdhd.html

http://cmdrkey.com/index.html

http://cbm.videocam.net.au/browser-index.php

[PaulQ]

I always wanted a Commodore 128, but in retrospect, there were two things wrong with it. One was C64 compatibility, and the other was CP/M compatibility. Both of these increased the complexity of the 128 unnecessarily, which also increased it's cost. Meanwhile, the actual 128 mode became obscured.

When you think about it, most C-128 owners upgraded from a Commodore 64, so the 64 mode was really unnecessary as long as all the hardware was backwards compatible; they could simply switch to the 64 whenever they needed 64 mode. As for CP/M mode, it's unfortunate that Commodore didn't already have an 8502-based CP/M-like operating system to open up a whole new dimension to Commodore computers. A CP/M kit with a Z80 processor in a cartridge could've been provided as an option like it was for the Commodore 64. All that said, I'd still love to get my hands on one.

As for Commodore 128-specific products, one product that comes to mind is the 128 Command Center, a box that houses the 128 and 2 1571 disk drives in a PC-Like box. I don't think hard drives were ever successfully marketed for the 128 on a large scale, as 3.5" diskettes became all the craze and hard drives were still considered only for high end machines.

[6502dude]

There were a couple of eprom based upgrades for C128

- Basic 8
- Servant

These may be burned to a 27C256 eprom and installed in unpopulated socket on motherboard or installed in rom postion within the 512 RAM cartridge. (hi/lo jumper rom jumpers need to be installed in ram expander to allow selection of the eprom).

There is a good forum for C128 - http://landover.no-ip.com/128/

[ral-clan]

The one thing that really bugged me about the C128 when it first came out was that it was really three computers in one, without any real link between the three. I realise it might have been impossible to integrate everthing in a more seamless manner, but to me it just seemed a bit hodge-podge to have to GO 64, GO 128 etc. with no real integration. I think a C65 (if it had been finished) would have been a smoother, more positive transition to the next generation of Commodore 8-bits.

When you think about it, most C-128 owners upgraded from a Commodore 64, so the 64 mode was really unnecessary as long as all the hardware was backwards compatible; they could simply switch to the 64 whenever they needed 64 mode.

I don't agree with this. For most people, computers were a big investment. From what I remember, when most people upgraded to a better computer (i.e. C-128 or Amiga 1000/500) they planned on selling their older computer to cut down the "bite" of the cost of the upgrade. Not to mention, then, as today, MOST people have no need, desire or space for two computers in their home at once. It's only the geeks, computer hobbiests, etc. that want more than one machine.

Of course, today we are spoiled, since we can get Commodores for $25 or less each we can own all of the systems at once.

[Schema]

Is there, for example, a product that allows you to connect a hard drive to a C128 ? I mean one that existed when the 128 was still available in stores.

There was also the Lt. Kernal hard drive system (very rare these days).

[PaulQ]

I don't agree with this. For most people, computers were a big investment. From what I remember, when most people upgraded to a better computer (i.e. C-128 or Amiga 1000/500) they planned on selling their older computer to cut down the "bite" of the cost of the upgrade. Not to mention, then, as today, MOST people have no need, desire or space for two computers in their home at once. It's only the geeks, computer hobbiests, etc. that want more than one machine.

Actually, back in the day, the Commodore computer was usually the cheapest component in the system. It was the peripherals that really added to the cost. I remember paying more for my 1541, my monitor, and my MPS-802 printer - each - than what my C-64 cost. Many people built their computer systems a piece at a time. It was not uncommon to see brown 1541 disk drives and brown 1702 monitors used with a new Commodore 128; even after acquiring a 1571 and even a 1581 disk drive, many still retained the old 1541 since you could have up to four disk drives. Think back to the Vic 20; there was no need to offer full Vic 20 compatibility when the 64 came out; people reused their peripherals and simply changed keyboards. I remember seeing plenty of Vic white printers and disk drives used with early C-64's. People who wanted to retain a full Vic 20 mode would keep their Vics; those who didn't usually sold their Vics and tape drives to help pay for a 1541 disk drive and 1702 monitor after the tape drive eased them into using their new computer.

Having that "GO64" mode only hobbled the computer, I think. There was no desire nor need for software publishers to make a 128-native version of their software. The added cost that these modes put on the 128 made it less desirable to upgrade to; it kept it from the $200 sweet spot people came to expect from Commodore computers. I also think it served to confuse people as to what the computer actually was supposed to be, and probably helped the continued sale of the Commodore 64c into the 90's.

What it really needed to be was an 80 column, full colour, 2 (or even 3) Mhz, 128k Commodore 64 with a better keyboard. That's all.

[carlsson]

As for CP/M mode, it's unfortunate that Commodore didn't already have an 8502-based CP/M-like operating system to open up a whole new dimension to Commodore computers. A CP/M kit with a Z80 processor in a cartridge could've been provided as an option like it was for the Commodore 64.

What good would a "CP/M-like" operating system be if it wasn't compatible with anything else on the market? There already were X86 (and I believe 68K) versions of CP/M which were binary incompatible with the old Z80 version.

For that matter, one of the major reasons the C128 has a built-in Z80 added in the last minute, was that Commodore managers had promised Z80 compatibility based on the the Z80 cartridge for the C64 would work. Alas, the system architecture prevented it from working. A promise is a promise, so they had to graft a real Z80 onto the motherboard.

[MacbthPSW]

Having that "GO64" mode only hobbled the computer, I think. There was no desire nor need for software publishers to make a 128-native version of their software.

I often hear this, but there was actually a rich library of productivity software for the C-128. Many different word processors, along with spreadsheet programs, databases, and the excellent GEOS 128. Really, it had everything that one could expect from a computer in those days.

It definitely lacked in the games software department, but that wasn't so much a fault of the built-in C-64 mode, but rather the C-128 mode itself. The 80 column VDC chip was great for stuff like word processors, but was much too slow to compete in most game genres with the VIC-II. It ended up that the only real advantage the 128 had over the 64 for games was the extra 64k of RAM, which didn't make enough of a difference for game makers to bother with.

[6502dude]

For most people, computers were a big investment.

They sure were!!!
When I bought my system new, I paid $477 + taxes for my C128, $479 + taxes for 1571, & $459 + taxes for my 2002 monitor. This was my upgrade from Vic-20 (which I kept). I had no disk drive with the Vic-20.

I bought 512K ram expander about a year later for $329 + taxes.
I bought a second 1571 used about the same time for $300 and thought I had a great deal.

[eslapion]

http://cmdrkey.com/cbm/supercpu/index.htm

http://cmdrkey.com/cbm/prodinfo/cmdhd.html

http://cmdrkey.com/index.html

http://cbm.videocam.net.au/browser-index.php

Boray, no offense intended but... I truly MUST reply here that anything made and sold by CMDRKEY and Maurice Randall simply never gets delivered. So I consider the 3 first links you mentioned to be misleading advertisement.

I think a lot of people feel the same way about Mr. Randall, even if what he developped are great products.

[PaulQ]

What good would a "CP/M-like" operating system be if it wasn't compatible with anything else on the market? There already were X86 (and I believe 68K) versions of CP/M which were binary incompatible with the old Z80 version.

As long as it could run the majority of existing Commodore software, it would've done quite well, actually. The library of Commodore software by then was quite large. It wouldn't need to be able to run everything, just the common business apps.

For that matter, one of the major reasons the C128 has a built-in Z80 added in the last minute, was that Commodore managers had promised Z80 compatibility based on the the Z80 cartridge for the C64 would work. Alas, the system architecture prevented it from working. A promise is a promise, so they had to graft a real Z80 onto the motherboard.

It's too bad they didn't offer it as an optional kit to keep the price of the 128 lower for those who didn't care for CP/M.

I often hear this, but there was actually a rich library of productivity software for the C-128. Many different word processors, along with spreadsheet programs, databases, and the excellent GEOS 128. Really, it had everything that one could expect from a computer in those days.

One of the reasons why I'd like to get my hands on a 128 is to check out how its native software performed.

When I bought my system new, I paid $477 + taxes for my C128, $479 + taxes for 1571, & $459 + taxes for my 2002 monitor. This was my upgrade from Vic-20 (which I kept). I had no disk drive with the Vic-20.

I bought 512K ram expander about a year later for $329 + taxes.
I bought a second 1571 used about the same time for $300 and thought I had a great deal.

For me, the 8 bit Commodores were an investment I made over time, starting with a Vic and Datasette. I could then reuse that Datasette on the 64. Next was a disk drive, then a printer, then a real monitor. I was waiting for the prices of the 128 to drop to the magic $200 mark and planned on reusing my monitor, printer, and disk drive, but by then the Amiga 500 was out. I ended up selling the entire lot for that Amiga with a 1084s monitor and Epson printer; the first (and last) time I ever had to dump a considerable amount of cash on a computer system all at once.

I always thought it interesting that the disk drives always cost more than the computers in the 8 bit Commodores and were thought of as the real investments, able to retain much of their value even in the used market.

[carlsson]

I'm not sure leaving out the Z80 subsystem would have reduced the C128 price by much, maybe 10-25%?

Do you realize that the previous Commodore computers don't have much of an operating system, in the sense of a common binary format? I can agree that Basic is a de-facto operating system, since it is what starts up on all PETs, VICs, C64s, Plus/4s and so on. What you then are looking for is a cross-platform hardware emulator running on the C128, making it capable of running most or all software written for the previous systems. Instead of a VIC-II, they'd need a VIC-III that is a combination of 6545, VIC-I, VIC-II and TED. Ditto, they'd to develop a SID-II that accurately can reproduce the sound from VIC-I, SID and TED. Never mind memory maps that can be reconfigured and selectable ROM sets. For some reason, I think the development of a such chipset would be much more expensive than making the C128 somewhat CP/M compatible.

The sad point is that CP/M was commercially dead in 1985, so I don't understand why that Commodore manager had offered compatibility. It had made more sense to offer a 8088 daughterboard and MS-DOS compatibility like Commodore at one point advertised their CBM-II series released in 1982. Alas it never materialized.

Eslapion: I think Boray wanted to point out that these CMD hard disks, CPU and memory expansions - of which some were specific for the C128 - did exist still back in the days. These are not products Maurice Randall developed himself; it is old stock that he has a license to sell. One or two products may have been improved past CMD's departure, but it is rather irrelevant to this discussion.

[PaulQ]

I'm not sure leaving out the Z80 subsystem would have reduced the C128 price by much, maybe 10-25%?

Probably enough to get it to the sub-$200 price range, I would guess.

Do you realize that the previous Commodore computers don't have much of an operating system, in the sense of a common binary format? I can agree that Basic is a de-facto operating system, since it is what starts up on all PETs, VICs, C64s, Plus/4s and so on. What you then are looking for is a cross-platform hardware emulator running on the C128, making it capable of running most or all software written for the previous systems. Instead of a VIC-II, they'd need a VIC-III that is a combination of 6545, VIC-I, VIC-II and TED. Ditto, they'd to develop a SID-II that accurately can reproduce the sound from VIC-I, SID and TED. Never mind memory maps that can be reconfigured and selectable ROM sets. For some reason, I think the development of a such chipset would be much more expensive than making the C128 somewhat CP/M compatible.

No, that's not what I suggested at all. There would be no need to emulate the chipset of the Plus/4, C-16, or Vic. All they needed was a Commodore 64 with 128 MB of RAM, a full colour 80 column display (switchable to 40 columns for compatibility), a more powerful BASIC, a better keyboard, and a real operating system. Many cartridges were available that offered a more complete operating system (many of these also accelerated the disk drive and provided a reset button), and many people were configuring their C-64's in this manner.

The sad point is that CP/M was commercially dead in 1985, so I don't understand why that Commodore manager had offered compatibility. It had made more sense to offer a 8088 daughterboard and MS-DOS compatibility like Commodore at one point advertised their CBM-II series released in 1982. Alas it never materialized.

I contend that the software library from the Commodore 64 was sufficient to consider it a viable alternative, independant platform. With a CP/M-like operating system, an 80 column display, and a better keyboard, Commodore could have gone head-to-head with IBM in markets outside of the home. All they needed to do was to make sure that most of the business software written for the C-64 would have been compatible; 100% C-64 compatibility wasn't necessary. Of course, they'd want to incorporate some sort of file system compatibility, so people could bring their work home and open them in their Commodore versions of their word processors and spreadsheets.

Alas, this is all hindsight, a lot of "Should've, could've, would've," which is pretty much pointless. Still, it is nice to wonder about what could have been had Commodore not become so...dysfunctional.

[carlsson]

To what extent is the C128 already C64 compatible? 99% or something like that? Most C64 software would be written for 40 column displays anyway. I can agree that Commodore could've tried to revive the PET library of business software, or perhaps support the CBM-II series which the C128 resembles very much.