The poor forgotten Commodore 128

[eslapion]

Eslapion: I think Boray wanted to point out that these CMD hard disks, CPU and memory expansions - of which some were specific for the C128 - did exist still back in the days. These are not products Maurice Randall developed himself; it is old stock that he has a license to sell. One or two products may have been improved past CMD's departure, but it is rather irrelevant to this discussion.

I must admit, that is true. They did exist back then and were easy to obtain in the late 80s/early 90s.

[Stinky]

To what extent is the C128 already C64 compatible? 99% or something like that? Most C64 software would be written for 40 column displays anyway. I can agree that Commodore could've tried to revive the PET library of business software, or perhaps support the CBM-II series which the C128 resembles very much.

True, a c128 without the compatibility would have been another CBMII machine. Even though the machine is flawed, it was a success in comparison to the other Commodore systems, especially considering it was launched at the same time as the Atari ST which was competitively priced.

The extra RAM, speed and VDC did make a big difference for productivity apps, many people bought a computer then just to run a spreadsheet or wordprocessor, or a single CPM app which may even be custom.

Now that I don't do any real productivity on the old gear, the 128 sits idle and the 64 gets all the attention because I like the keyboard more.

[ral-clan]

Bill Herd designed both the TED systems and the 128...TED was a failure and the 128 was too in a sense (it sold fairly well, but a lot of them were bought only to be used in C64 mode. The the 128's extra features were barely used).

So two well designed computers, but poorly selling ones. It seems that Bill Herd was an excellent engineer/designer, but his ideas about what the public desired weren't correct. Or was he just trapped into designing a doomed machine by the requirements of management/marketing?

[carlsson]

Perhaps he was good at coming up with new concepts, and too good in convincing the management that the computer had to be designed. I've read that TED initially was planned to be used in an ultra-cheap computer to compete with the Sinclair Spectrum et.al (i.e. what became the Commodore 116), but over the course of development it got bloated. There are a few rather obscure models such as C-232 based on the same design.

To me, it would've made more sense to manufacture "Commodore 32", a stripped-down C64 with half the RAM (optional upgrade) and cheaper keyboard in mid-1983 if Commodore wanted a really cheap but competitive computer. Probably they thought it was too early to introduce another model and "kill" the VIC-20 already in 1983.

[ral-clan]

What might have been cool is a C-32 sold either as a cheap separate computer, or as a cheaper circuit board kit only, which could be swapped into your VIC-20 casing (by yourself or a dealer). It would use the VIC's RF modulator. Would also have come with a sticky label you could put over the VIC-20 sticker to identify your "Commodore 32" upgrade.

[Mike]

I skipped the C64, and instead bought the C128. So I used the 64 mode to play games, the 128 mode to program. Best of both worlds.

Michael

[MacbthPSW]

I must admit, that is true. They did exist back then and were easy to obtain in the late 80s/early 90s.

Many of the CMD products didn't exist in the late 80s, they weren't made until the 90s, even the late 90s (SuperCPU in 1996, SuperCPU128 in 1997-1998, Turbo232 sometime in the late 90s too).

I bought my first pieces of CMD equipment in 1996 (FD-2000 and SuperCPU) and my most recent purchase was JiffyDOS for the VIC-20 in early 2006. FWIW, it was easy to obtain every time I purchased.

[PaulQ]

I think it's quite clear that the Commodore 64 represented what many people wanted in a home computer leading up to the mid 1980's, which is why the 16/plus/4/128 didn't do as well. People looked at these machines and thought, "Why not just buy a 64?" We ought to bear in mind that the Commodore 64 was, for all intents and purposes, a Vic 20 that addressed the issues of the Vic 20 (limited memory, 22 column display); to such an extent that at one point during its development it was called the "Vic 40."

A 64 with 128 MB of memory, a 2Mhz processor, an 80 column display, and a better keyboard for $200 should have been the next logical step, as the 64 replaced the Vic 20 as the $100 entry-level computer. Then again, I had read somewhere that the Amiga and Commodore 128 cost about the same to manufacture, so maybe the writing was on the wall and there was nothing to save. In any case, I do confess that the Commodore 128 is most certainly a more interesting collectable thanks to its multiple personality disorder.

[carlsson]

DQ: Twice you have written 128MB when you mean 128 kB.

The VIC upgrade kits are interesting. If Commodore really wanted to have a strong entry model, they would've returned to the VIC-40 upgrade as soon as the Commodore 64 was launched. Even if it would not have supported "22" column mode, it would have been more backwards compatible than the Commodore 16 and Plus/4 ever were. I imagine a Commodore 32 like a cross between UltiMAX and Commodore 116.

I rather think they didn't want to confuse the customers with a spectrum of similar models, and instead push on the superiority of a Commodore 64, so you'd be willing to pay that little bit extra compared to cheaper alternatives. On the other hand, many competitors sold their computers in different configurations without losing focus (e.g. ZX Spectrum 16/48K, many MSX machines in 32/64K). In the end though, customers tended to buy the most advanced model instead of going through an update program.

Selling a cheap entry level computer also does not guarantee that the customer will be loyal to you when it is time to upgrade. If the customer bought a relatively expensive one, he or she is "stuck" with it for a few years, and you as the manufacturer are responsible for making the most out of it. Jack Tramiel liked to compare computers to razors. He would sell you a Commodore razor, and then you are required to buy Commodore razor blades. If it is a cheap, disposable razor, you might try Gillette ... err, Atari the next time.

[C2N]

G'day!
Could anyone enlighten me as to whether there were ANY games produced SOLELY for the 128? I imagine that with double the Kb, pretty good games could have been produced. To this day I have NEVER seen ANY games which ONLY run on the 128.
Thanks, mates!

[MacbthPSW]

G'day!
Could anyone enlighten me as to whether there were ANY games produced SOLELY for the 128? I imagine that with double the Kb, pretty good games could have been produced. To this day I have NEVER seen ANY games which ONLY run on the 128.
Thanks, mates!

Yeah, there were a few decent ones, check out a list here:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/archive ... t-948.html

Kickstart 128 and the 128-only version of Last V8 are favourites of mine.

Just try googling c128 only games (do a google groups search too) for a lot more discussion, and perhaps a more complete list.

[carlsson]

I remember a cricket (!) game for the C128. I believe there are C128 versions of Elite, The Last V8 and latter Ultima games? Somewhere on the Internet, there ought to exist a complete listing, even if it only contains ~20 titles. Perhaps you would not consider improved versions (with more music/sounds, fewer disk accesses in game etc) of a game that already existed on the C64.

[C2N]

Thanks for the link, MacbthPSW. There are more than I thought but it's still a trifle isn't it?