New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

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norm8332
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby norm8332 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:53 pm

MCes wrote:reporting fact = troll

strange equations....


Thanks for the crappy memory card that almost anyone could make on a breadboard in 5 minutes. I think PLAnkton is in another league and you just can't grasp it therefore you are a jealous jerk about it.

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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby MCes » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:02 pm

norm8332 wrote:
MCes wrote:reporting fact = troll

strange equations....


Thanks for the crappy memory card that almost anyone could make on a breadboard in 5 minutes. I think PLAnkton is in another league and you just can't grasp it therefore you are a jealous jerk about it.


what a clear technical analysis!
On TV I watched Totò Riina that used words similar for who don't permit to him to escape when he was handcuffed...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvatore_Riina

If you need to insult for escaping from a technical point it means :
1) you are wrong
2) you know the point 1
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby MCes » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:11 pm

Funny!

People that make everything but not simply to measure with a voltmeter the Vcc on the CPLD!

If eslapion trust in it's opinion he can supply a C64 with 5,25V (or 7V) mesuring this voltage between pin 14 and 28 of the plankton and posting the pics of relative measuring of the Vcc onto CPLD inside the plankton....

After we will have on an hand the CPLD datasheet and into the other hand the measuring from the real world, so we will have something to comment...

Now I'm waiting that Eslaption will writing something as "I can't measure it because my plankons was eaten by my red fishes!"
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby eslapion » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:47 pm

MCes wrote:People that make everything but not simply to measure with a voltmeter the Vcc on the CPLD!

I'm sorry, I can't make sense of that sentence...

If eslapion trust in it's opinion he can supply a C64 with 5,25V (or 7V) mesuring this voltage between pin 14 and 28 of the plankton and posting the pics of relative measuring of the Vcc onto CPLD inside the plankton....

Ok...OK... you mean...
If eslapion firmly believes what he says then he can supply a C64 with 5.25V (or 7V) and measure the voltage between pins 14 and 28 of the PLAnkton module and post pics of these measurements at PLAnkton's CPLD power lines...

... can't quite get the rest but I get the idea.

1- You have a PLAnkton apparently so why don't you do it ?
2- I won't go to 7V as this would destroy the DRAM chips.
3- If 5.25V is satisfactory then your wish is my command... BTW, if you power a C64 at 5.25Vdc (on the DC input) you can't get 5.25V on the main board because of the power filter.
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby MCes » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:02 pm

5.25V is the limit of the TTL chip, not of the board: feed the C64 Vcc line to read 5,25V on pin 14-28 of plankton an then read the Vcc on CPLD.

Pics will be appreciated

eslapion wrote:2- I won't go to 7V as this would destroy the DRAM chips.

All memory datasheets that I found declare a "Recommended Operating Conditions" 5V+-10% ( from 4,5V to 5,5V) with 7V of "Absolute Maximum Ratings",so I never run up over 5,25V for TTL or 5,5V for RAMs, as 3,6V for your CPLD....

It's strange that if the C64 is yours one you don't reach at "Absolute Maximum Ratings" but you want stay deep inside of "Recommended Operating Conditions"....

May be that now I am a little bit malicious, but now we have to wait the evidence of your test
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby eslapion » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:17 pm

MCes wrote:5.25V is the limit of the TTL chip, not of the board: feed the C64 Vcc line to read 5,25V on pin 14-28 of plankton an then read the Vcc on CPLD.

There are 3 different types of ICs on the standard breadbin C64; TTL (all 74LSxx), CMOS (DRAM and color SRAM) and NMOS (all 65xx). All 3 have different characteristics.

All memory datasheets that I found declare a "Recommended Operating Conditions" 5V+-10% ( from 4,5V to 5,5V) with 7V of "Absolute Maximum Ratings",so I never run up over 5,25V for TTL or 5,5V for RAMs, as 3,6V for your CPLD....

It's strange that if the C64 is yours one you don't reach at "Absolute Maximum Ratings" but you want stay deep inside of "Recommended Operating Conditions"....

There is only one type on PLAnkton... that's why. Since this IC is still available and in production, I had the luxury of running destructive tests... I believe I already mentioned that.

May be that now I am a little bit malicious, but now we have to wait the evidence of your test
...
Pics will be appreciated

I am your humble servant... I will deliver, as I did with the photos of the VIC-20 a few weeks ago.

The only unpleasant part of your request is fitting my lab PSU to a hacked C64 PSU so I can adjust the 5V to the desired level. Otherwise, it's all too easy.
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby Floopy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:59 pm

:roll:
-Floopy

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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby eslapion » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:54 pm

MCes wrote:5.25V is the limit of the TTL chip, not of the board: feed the C64 Vcc line to read 5,25V on pin 14-28 of plankton an then read the Vcc on CPLD.

My power supply (which I used at the WoC in december) provides 5.12V on the 5Vdc line. Once past the power filter, the voltage measurable on the 250466 assy is 5.05V and the CPLD on PLAnkton get 3.69V. You have to wait for at least 10 minutes for that to stabilise - the power consumption of a VIC-20/C64/C128 varies with temperature.

I raised the 5Vdc line by attaching it to my Xantrex lab PSU and setting it to 5.34V and this resulted in a measurable 5.25V on the 250466 after 10 mins. At that point the CPLD gets 3.84V. That's still 160mV below 4V.

Pics will be appreciated

I have to take care of something much more important... http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?96 ... TOLB-combo
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby MCes » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:43 am

I swapped a PLA of mine for a planktn: now I can measure something...

On my C64 motherboard I desoldered a side of L5 to feed the 5V line from another (variable) PSU, the results:
(4.75-5.25 is the narrowest Recommended Operation Conditions (ROC) of C64 chips)

V28-14 / Vcpld
4.75 / 3.52
4.85 / 3.595
4.95 / 3.67
5.00 / 3.71
5.05 / 3.745
5.15 / 3.819
5.25 / 3.895
(V28-14 is the voltage between Pin28 and Pin14 of PLA before diode resistor, Vcpld is measured after diode-resistor)

From the real world we can note....

First note: if the target is to supply the CPLD with not less of 3.6V (for guarantee a prefixed Voh) plankton don't meet this with a permitted V28-14 equal or below 4.85V (4.75...4.85V).

Second note: the Vcpld increasing is linear with V28-14 increasing (75%), so the suggestive theory about aliens that use capacitors energy to transform a CPLD in a zener diode is demonstrated to be a FAKE: it's a fact.

Through this linear law (measured into the real world), it's possible to estimate:
A) 4Vcpld will reached with V28-14 of 5.39V
B) with the AMR of the chips inside C64 (7V) the Vcpld will be around 6.56V (2.56V beyound the "mortal point" of 4V): a very good work!

Plankton is suffering by a wrong project choose: it need a precise Vcpld of 3.6V but it was obtained with a diode and dropping resistor that not guarantee the right value of 3.6V.

It's possible to suppose that this serious project bug is well known: e5frog (on lemon64) refused to show the back side of plankton ("It's nothing interesting, just a row of pins") the back side where everybody can see that is not present any voltage stabilizer but only a diode and a drop resistor.....

If they be ashamed by this nasty choosing into the plankton project,
then I agree with them.
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby eslapion » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:49 pm

MCes wrote:V28-14 / Vcpld
4.75 / 3.52
4.85 / 3.595
4.95 / 3.67
5.00 / 3.71
5.05 / 3.745
5.15 / 3.819
5.25 / 3.895
(V28-14 is the voltage between Pin28 and Pin14 of PLA before diode resistor, Vcpld is measured after diode-resistor)


Early versions of PLAnkton were equipped with a 20 Ohms resistor to drop the voltage. Current versions are (since jan. 2017) equipped with a 27 Ohms resistor.

Still, you did not exceed 3.9V. Also note the voltage at the CPLD does not have a linear relation with the voltage at pin 28 -> 4.75-3.52=1.23V while 5.25-3.895=1.355V

B) with the AMR of the chips inside C64 (7V) the Vcpld will be around 6.56V (2.56V beyound the "mortal point" of 4V): a very good work!

I was able to run a test version of PLAnkton with the CPLD getting 4.3V at Vcc. Was that magic ?

Also, did you check the absolute maximum rating for the DRAM chips ? :lol: A clue: it's NOT 7 volts!

If they be ashamed by this nasty choosing into the plankton project,
then I agree with them.

:lol: can anyone make sense of this one ?

Added edit:
Plankton is suffering by a wrong project choose: it need a precise Vcpld of 3.6V but it was obtained with a diode and dropping resistor that not guarantee the right value of 3.6V.

Actually, 3.3V is enough on all original C64 but some idiot back in 2015 decided to make a new board with 74HC logic ICs on it. These require 3.5V or more. Go figure...

... word choose you should better. Or desperately syntax improve you to really need. :roll:
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby MCes » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:46 am

eslapion wrote:Early versions of PLAnkton were equipped with a 20 Ohms resistor to drop the voltage. Current versions are (since jan. 2017) equipped with a 27 Ohms resistor.

Why change something in a PERFECT project?

eslapion wrote:Also note the voltage at the CPLD does not have a linear relation with the voltage at pin 28 -> 4.75-3.52=1.23V while 5.25-3.895=1.355V

Are you sure you have some kind of technical education?
My nephew can explain you the difference between LINEAR and DIRECT relationship, the first is when INCREMENTAL value has a fixed coefficient (that I MEASURED of 0.75), the second is when this coefficient is equal to 1.
A proof is easy seen: if in your laboratory is present a pen and a piece of squared paper you can draw the measure to see that it describe a line....
eslapion wrote:You also don't account for the fact the XC9536XL on PLAnkton is tied to a 100pF capacitor which it charges and discharges about 2.02 million times per second. Since the energy stored in a capacitor is calculated 1/2xCxV^2, this means the energy expended increases to the square of the voltage. If the voltage rises, the system will consume more power and stabilizes itself.


stabilizes itself?
the dissipation in a resistor is dimensionally equal at your formula: a constant coefficient that multiply the voltage at 2° power: (1/R)*V^2.
Never seen a resistor in a voltage partitor stabilize a voltage....
The real world denies you ........:
I measured that "the Vcpld increasing is linear with V28-14 increasing (75%)"

eslapion wrote:I was able to run a test version of PLAnkton with the CPLD getting 4.3V at Vcc. Was that magic ?

I told you: the plankton surviving is because Xilinx engineers, as opposite of you, use to be conservative in their project.
Plankton can work despite your project choose
eslapion wrote:Also, did you check the absolute maximum rating for the DRAM chips ? :lol: A clue: it's NOT 7 volts!

A lot of DRAM have AMR of 6V, someone have 7V (you can't exclude to have this on a board), but important is that every DRAM have a ROC of 5v +-10% so from 4,5 to 5.5V.... your project go out of AMR when DRAMs are drinking coffee inside their ROC...

the hardware bug is proved by the facts, now we can only to wait the "plankton 2° generation" with a voltage regulator on board...
Into VHDL code you can hide "MCes" as you did in a ROM with Groepaz, I'll consider this like a credit for my help to improve your project..
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby eslapion » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:58 am

MCes wrote:
eslapion wrote:Also note the voltage at the CPLD does not have a linear relation with the voltage at pin 28 -> 4.75-3.52=1.23V while 5.25-3.895=1.355V

Are you sure you have some kind of technical education?
My nephew can explain you the difference between LINEAR and DIRECT relationship, the first is when INCREMENTAL value has a fixed coefficient (that I MEASURED of 0.75), the second is when this coefficient is equal to 1.
A proof is easy seen: if in your laboratory is present a pen and a piece of squared paper you can draw the measure to see that it describe a line....
eslapion wrote:You also don't account for the fact the XC9536XL on PLAnkton is tied to a 100pF capacitor which it charges and discharges about 2.02 million times per second. Since the energy stored in a capacitor is calculated 1/2xCxV^2, this means the energy expended increases to the square of the voltage. If the voltage rises, the system will consume more power and stabilizes itself.


The real world denies you ........:
I measured that "the Vcpld increasing is linear with V28-14 increasing (75%)"

Ohms law denies you...

V=RxI -> 1.23-0.7=20xI : I=26.5mA ; power is 26.5mA x 3.52V=93.3mW
1.355-0.7=20xI : I=32.8mA ; power is 32.8mA x 3.895V=127.6mW

V/V: 5.25/4.75=1.105

mA/mA: 32.8/26.5=1.238

mW/mW: 127.6/93.3=1.368


That's... linear ?

Stop trolling my thread... it's not my responsibility to give you electrical engineering courses.

the hardware bug is proved by the facts, now we can only to wait the "plankton 2° generation" with a voltage regulator on board...

The presence of a regulator would make PLAnkton incompatible with the C64 Reloaded MK I.
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby MCes » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:15 am

In the best of case you are an incompetent, in the other case you are a liar (or both).
(if nature is not agree with Eslapion then Eslapion tell that nature is in error....)

I think that it's clear that me and you, for different reasons, can't accept any analysis from each other.

I think that the hardware bug of plankton is now sufficiently documented, with technical analysis and with measures in the real world.

Who have the patient to read the obyective elements from this thread will made the own idea about you, me, and your CPLD power supply.

About trolling: who started this game was you spitting on a project of mine and during discussion about "project choosing process" the plankton HW bug was found: this is the conseguence of your activity of "trolling" every other person/project on sell here and out of here.

I don't need to slander you: you slander yourselfe very well without the help of anybody else, it's sufficient read you.

Who have read all can understand my words,
for the others that could be surprised by pungency of my words I apologize with them.

Now I wait opinions and new elements of discussion by the others people of the forum, otherwise continuing this discussion is fruitless
Last edited by MCes on Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby eslapion » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:18 am

MCes wrote:In the best of case you are an incompetent, in the other case you are a liar (or both).

This is not an 'opinion', this is throwing insults.

Stop trolling my thread.

Back in 2016, Mitch Farley reported he accidentally inserted his PLAnkton in the socket for the SID and this caused no damage at all to it.

This is not 5.25 or 6V or even 7V measurable at pins 14 - 28; this is 12 volts!! It caused no damage.

Since then there are at least half a dozen more people who reported having made the same mistake and their PLAnktons still works just fine. There are probably many many more people who made the same mistake and simply did not report it.

I have not had a single request for replacement because of a faulty CPLD. Since I began selling PLAnkton in August 2015 and I cover them for 3 years, this means every single unit I have sold is still covered.

Now...
V28-14 / Vcpld
4.75 / 3.52
4.85 / 3.595
4.95 / 3.67
5.00 / 3.71
5.05 / 3.745
5.15 / 3.819
5.25 / 3.895
(V28-14 is the voltage between Pin28 and Pin14 of PLA before diode resistor, Vcpld is measured after diode-resistor)

This is useful statistical information. I can learn something from it. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

Most everything else you posted in this thread is just you attacking something you don't understand because you put your ego before your responsibility concerning the use of edge connectors using the wrong type of plating material.
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Re: New generation of PLA - PLAnkton

Postby MCes » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:34 pm

I think that the hardware bug of plankton is now sufficiently documented, with technical analysis and with measures in the real world.

Now I wait opinions and new elements of discussion by the others people of the forum, otherwise continuing this discussion is fruitless
“Don’t argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” (Mark Twain ?)


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