In reaction to the letter posted on his site,
http://home.worldonline.se/boray/datorm ... etter.html
I had a vic 20 with absolutely no accessories for about 5 or 6 years (other than the joystick I borrowed from the family's Atari 2600).
I used to type in programs from COMPUTE magazine with no intention of ever saving them... 4 hours of typing to eventually play a game program and turn it off.
I made my own games as well. I would transcribe them as I worked on them. My notebook was my disk drive! Sure, I wanted a datacassette, but it was much too expensive at the time. The items I bought first were games. I had 3 game carts and eventually a programmers reference guide.
Around six years after first getting it I saw a disk drive on clearance as the Vic 20 had already vanished from the shelves and the interest level in the 64 was dropping. I bought it for around us$60. The disk drive was my first official hardware for the vic.
I made all of my games and programs with the disk drive in mind. Many games loaded in parts from the drive. I can understand why this is an unlikely combo, but it was the one I am most familiar with. Expanded memory never became familiar to me.
As for emulation, I am not a big fan, but it is useful for quick surveying of programs. I will transfer all the programs from our forums to disk before really playing them.
Thanks for giving us something to think about.
Anders' Open letter to the VIC-20 demo scene
Moderator: Moderators
I had a Vic 20 + datasette + Machine language monitor cart for ages. The next thing I got was a CBM8050 twin disk + interpod from a university clearout. I didn't get a RAM cart until I bought a load of 'scrap' Vic parts many years later.
Writing code for the Vic on a PC isn't retro, I'd agree, but I don't see the point of writing the code on a Vic, using up to date tools makes it far easier and quicker and more likely that code will be finished - or even written in the first place.
I much prefer to use the Vic to run the final code than use Vice or similar but no way am I giving up the up to date tools I use to create it, life's just too short.
Lee.
Writing code for the Vic on a PC isn't retro, I'd agree, but I don't see the point of writing the code on a Vic, using up to date tools makes it far easier and quicker and more likely that code will be finished - or even written in the first place.
I much prefer to use the Vic to run the final code than use Vice or similar but no way am I giving up the up to date tools I use to create it, life's just too short.
Lee.
I think what Anders critisised was cross-developing on a PC, i.e. using a PC based text editor and assembler for programming and then transferring the program to an emulator and real VIC.
The problem with his argumentation is that he presupposes that what people do is "retro" programming. I don't think that's true for many VIC programmers. They like programming for a limited system and push the boundaries for what can be accomplished. They would consider limiting the programming environment to a 22 column screen and a painfully slow tapedrive a waste of time. That's also the reason for programming for the unexpanded VIC – bigger memory is less of a challenge.
I think it's the same as with C64 demo programmers. As CreamD writes on his C64 scene site, http://www.c64.sk/:
The problem with his argumentation is that he presupposes that what people do is "retro" programming. I don't think that's true for many VIC programmers. They like programming for a limited system and push the boundaries for what can be accomplished. They would consider limiting the programming environment to a 22 column screen and a painfully slow tapedrive a waste of time. That's also the reason for programming for the unexpanded VIC – bigger memory is less of a challenge.
I think it's the same as with C64 demo programmers. As CreamD writes on his C64 scene site, http://www.c64.sk/:
That sums it up pretty well, I think.C64.SK
Definitely not a retro site!
Infotext version 0.4 (updated on the 1st of July 2001)
There are many interesting C64 sites containing C64 related things. One special kind of them are C64 related news servers. They write about C64 game remakes, about C64 related web pages, about new C64 related PC software and about all kind of C64 related retro activities. All in all, all those news mostly inform about IMHO vain collectorism of thousand times before collected stuff, recreation of created and recyclation of recycled.
Problem is that the so-called real C64 life happens outside the WWW, Internet, PC harddisks and emulators.
This site has a very simple purpose. It should contain news about you - people living in the scene, creating art, spending hours and days on various projects which deserve recognition. Which deserve to be spread in a good old meaning of the word "spread". People visiting, organising or competing on parties. People behind the words "Today’s Scene". This site is for those who are interested in new things happening in the C64 area and especially for those who don’t feel retro, because they don’t need to. People with attitudes, opinions and creative minds. People who instead of collecting spend their valuable time on creating.
Simply: This site is not just a link collection to huge piles of disk images, but information and support for current projects and events.
Bacon
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Das rubbernecken Sichtseeren keepen das cotton-pickenen Hands in die Pockets muss; relaxen und watschen die Blinkenlichten.
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Das rubbernecken Sichtseeren keepen das cotton-pickenen Hands in die Pockets muss; relaxen und watschen die Blinkenlichten.
I don't know what it is with people and cross-developing. To me it is just as meaningful to wear out your VIC only because that is how used to be as to cook food in a stone oven or open fire. Today we have electrical stoves, but that would not be retro cooking even if we used the old recipes and ingredients, because we do it in a damn electrical stove!
When it comes to disk vs RAM, I can agree that disk drives weren't common (some C64 people may still think that the VIC-20 doesn't support disk drive), but about all the remaining users and fans have a disk drive solution. It would be possible to write a trackmo for tape, as the parts load sequentially, but much harder to download from Internet and store onto a real tape (using the tap -> wav and record from there).
Both Albert, Aleksi and to some extent the other groups have made a lot of single-part unexpanded demos - the first demo disk compilation in 2000 was full of them. The second demo disk contained more trackmos.
If you don't like disk drives, PCs and emulation - fine. Don't bother to download these productions, but there is no point in telling other people what and how they should do things the "right" way.
This past winter, the editor of the magazine Commodore Scene went into comp.sys.cbm and said that he was willing to pay so and so many hundred US dollars to the first individual or group who developed a playable DOOM clone for the C64, possibly with a SuperCPU expansion since it may be required. The experienced programmers both there and at scene-oriented places like CSDB described the task as close to impossible, even with a SCPU. The editor and his fellows offered to put EVEN MORE MONEY into the project, just like money can solve technical difficulties. In the end, MagerValp made a rough conversation of a DOOM screenshot into a handful of different C64 resolutions, of which most would be impossible to implement with an acceptable frame rate. Upon the question which level of graphics was preferred, the most good looking but also totally impractical mode for action graphics was chosen. Since then, the subject has been very quiet and I suspect no programmer who knows his capacities and limitations will make an attempt.
To me, this is what happens when someone from the outside tells what he wants to see be done in a market which commercially is stone dead since more than 15 years ago. Everyone are enthusiasts, nostalgics or collectors, and mainly doing what they like themselves. Some enthusiasts see emulation as an opportunity, some see it as a threat, some see it as an imperfection and struggle to make their programs as emulator unfriendly as possible. When the emulation has improved a few years later, they have to find new ways to break it. Very productive, don't you think?
When it comes to disk vs RAM, I can agree that disk drives weren't common (some C64 people may still think that the VIC-20 doesn't support disk drive), but about all the remaining users and fans have a disk drive solution. It would be possible to write a trackmo for tape, as the parts load sequentially, but much harder to download from Internet and store onto a real tape (using the tap -> wav and record from there).
Both Albert, Aleksi and to some extent the other groups have made a lot of single-part unexpanded demos - the first demo disk compilation in 2000 was full of them. The second demo disk contained more trackmos.
If you don't like disk drives, PCs and emulation - fine. Don't bother to download these productions, but there is no point in telling other people what and how they should do things the "right" way.
This past winter, the editor of the magazine Commodore Scene went into comp.sys.cbm and said that he was willing to pay so and so many hundred US dollars to the first individual or group who developed a playable DOOM clone for the C64, possibly with a SuperCPU expansion since it may be required. The experienced programmers both there and at scene-oriented places like CSDB described the task as close to impossible, even with a SCPU. The editor and his fellows offered to put EVEN MORE MONEY into the project, just like money can solve technical difficulties. In the end, MagerValp made a rough conversation of a DOOM screenshot into a handful of different C64 resolutions, of which most would be impossible to implement with an acceptable frame rate. Upon the question which level of graphics was preferred, the most good looking but also totally impractical mode for action graphics was chosen. Since then, the subject has been very quiet and I suspect no programmer who knows his capacities and limitations will make an attempt.
To me, this is what happens when someone from the outside tells what he wants to see be done in a market which commercially is stone dead since more than 15 years ago. Everyone are enthusiasts, nostalgics or collectors, and mainly doing what they like themselves. Some enthusiasts see emulation as an opportunity, some see it as a threat, some see it as an imperfection and struggle to make their programs as emulator unfriendly as possible. When the emulation has improved a few years later, they have to find new ways to break it. Very productive, don't you think?
Anders Carlsson
I didn't see this thread until now... Well, I wrote that letter as a reaction to a vic-20 demo I just had seen. In the demo text it said "Fuckings to those who suggested we should get ram expansions". It seems some people look down on us using ram expansions. That more than 3.5K is a bad thing, something less pure. I just can't get that attitude to fit with the fact that the people having this attitude in the same time are using equipment that would have been a fantasy dream for any vic user in 1983. Well, if anyone can dig up just one person that in 1983 had the Vic-20 as his only computer, a disk drive but no ram expansion, then I will stand corrected. But I honestly don't think such a person ever existed. I have absolutely no objection to using diskdrives. If you have a Vic-20 + diskdrive but no ram expansion, well, I don't want to stop you from using that. I just wanted to educate people of how it was back then, that ram expansions almost was part of the Vic rather than some oddity...
/Anders
/Anders
Another thing to think about is that plug-in games also is a form of memory expansion. The program is running on board of the cartridge, just that it is running in ROM memory instead of RAM memory. Most cartridge games uses 8K of ROM. They use the computer's internal 5K RAM too, which means the games actually requires 13K of memory to run. There are also 16K plugin games... Some of the graphics is of course just stored in ROM and copied to RAM before running (probably around 2K). But the game still requires a lot more memory than the default 5K to run.
/Anders
/Anders
Sorry, but which active scener is telling the viewers to fuck off? I'll have to review the most recent VIC-20 demos and maybe stir up a subject elsewhere.
However, one reason why you would write software for unexpanded + disk drive is that many people who already have a C64 + 1541 may buy a VIC-20 on eBay. The drive connects as it is, but if no memory expansion was included with the VIC, it has to be bought or built separately. Thus, today it is just as possible that you have a disk drive as you have extra memory, and all the software is available today, not 20 years ago.
The coolest programs are of course those who require both RAM expansion and a disk drive.
However, one reason why you would write software for unexpanded + disk drive is that many people who already have a C64 + 1541 may buy a VIC-20 on eBay. The drive connects as it is, but if no memory expansion was included with the VIC, it has to be bought or built separately. Thus, today it is just as possible that you have a disk drive as you have extra memory, and all the software is available today, not 20 years ago.
The coolest programs are of course those who require both RAM expansion and a disk drive.
Anders Carlsson
It was one of the demos on the address you gave me some time ago. One of the demos was called Kekkonen, and there was demos about robots takingover the world etc... It was in one of those demos on that page...
You are right about that with 64-people buying a vic-20 and allready having a diskdrive. But that is probably also why they think memory expansions is an oddity, just because on the C64, it was extremely rare...
/Anders
You are right about that with 64-people buying a vic-20 and allready having a diskdrive. But that is probably also why they think memory expansions is an oddity, just because on the C64, it was extremely rare...
/Anders
Hmm.. that would be Viznut of PWP. I've never been in touch with him, but maybe its one of the more rebellous people on the scene. Maybe the view upon memory expansion is different if you have a tradition of continuously using a VIC-20 for many years or just leapt into it (typically from a C64 point of view) to see what you can accomplish by reading the specs and experiment.
OTOH, there are a lot of people who tell the users of an emulator to get lost (or the more nasty phrase I used before). Everyone are entitled to have their opinions, but personally I've moved from pointing fingers on what someone else really should do to lighter advice.
It is true that the older generation of VIC-20 emulators are awful on the edge to destructive to use and believe being truthful, but since the VICE team decided to rework the VIC-I emulation (after getting notices and complaints about not being able to run the latest software!), I find it quite good. Far from perfect, in particular white noise and maybe some more advanced raster tricks, but I prefer that someone views my few productions in the emulator I recommend than not viewing it at all, which is the only option if you don't have access to or can't bother to use your own VIC-20 at the minute.
OTOH, there are a lot of people who tell the users of an emulator to get lost (or the more nasty phrase I used before). Everyone are entitled to have their opinions, but personally I've moved from pointing fingers on what someone else really should do to lighter advice.
It is true that the older generation of VIC-20 emulators are awful on the edge to destructive to use and believe being truthful, but since the VICE team decided to rework the VIC-I emulation (after getting notices and complaints about not being able to run the latest software!), I find it quite good. Far from perfect, in particular white noise and maybe some more advanced raster tricks, but I prefer that someone views my few productions in the emulator I recommend than not viewing it at all, which is the only option if you don't have access to or can't bother to use your own VIC-20 at the minute.
Anders Carlsson
If *everyone* had expansion ram carts for their vic 20 back then, why did all but one of the Vic 20's I've bought come without a ram cart? :-)
Anyway, who cares...you shouldn't take what you read in a scroller too seriously.
Oh, and I code my demos on a c128D - I hope you don't think that makes me "retro", because I'd take that as an insult ;-)
Anyway, who cares...you shouldn't take what you read in a scroller too seriously.
Oh, and I code my demos on a c128D - I hope you don't think that makes me "retro", because I'd take that as an insult ;-)
Ram carts often get separated from the vic and end up at the game traders for some reason. 
But of course some people didn't have a ram cart... But the combination vic20 + diskdrive with no ram cart did not exist at all.
And the answer is the prices. Here is a Swedish price list from 16/11 1981 (in Swedish kronor)
Vic-20
2.499:-
User manual
79:-
vic-1515 printer
3.249:-
vic-1530 tape recorder
549:-
vic-1540 diskdrive
4.995:-
vic-1010 expansion unit (6 cart ports)
1.650:-
vic-1011 rs-232c
495:-
vic-1110 8k ram cart
595:-
vic-1111 16k ram cart
996:-
vic-1210 3k ram cart
349:-
vic-1211m super expander
595:-
vic-1212 programmers aid
395:-
vic-1213 ml monitor
395:-
Grafikanalys
495:-
Statistik
495:-
vic-forth
549:-
Media
vic-tape c-12 2pcs.
19:95
vic diskettes 10psc.
340:-
Games:
jupiter lander
195:-
poker
195:-
alien
195:-
avenger
195:-
slot
195:-
road race
195:-
Books:
User manual
79:-
Vic programmeringshandbok
149:-
Basic på vic
89:-
----
... A 8k ram cart costed as much as 18 diskettes. And a diskdrive costed as much as eight 8k ram carts...
Also have in mind that the money was alot more worth back then. A vic-20+tape was about the same price as a budget PC today...
Also take a look here:
http://sleepingelephant.com/ipw-web/bul ... c.php?t=96
PS. I made the graphics for my last vic game on a C128
/Anders
But of course some people didn't have a ram cart... But the combination vic20 + diskdrive with no ram cart did not exist at all.
And the answer is the prices. Here is a Swedish price list from 16/11 1981 (in Swedish kronor)
Vic-20
2.499:-
User manual
79:-
vic-1515 printer
3.249:-
vic-1530 tape recorder
549:-
vic-1540 diskdrive
4.995:-
vic-1010 expansion unit (6 cart ports)
1.650:-
vic-1011 rs-232c
495:-
vic-1110 8k ram cart
595:-
vic-1111 16k ram cart
996:-
vic-1210 3k ram cart
349:-
vic-1211m super expander
595:-
vic-1212 programmers aid
395:-
vic-1213 ml monitor
395:-
Grafikanalys
495:-
Statistik
495:-
vic-forth
549:-
Media
vic-tape c-12 2pcs.
19:95
vic diskettes 10psc.
340:-
Games:
jupiter lander
195:-
poker
195:-
alien
195:-
avenger
195:-
slot
195:-
road race
195:-
Books:
User manual
79:-
Vic programmeringshandbok
149:-
Basic på vic
89:-
----
... A 8k ram cart costed as much as 18 diskettes. And a diskdrive costed as much as eight 8k ram carts...
Also have in mind that the money was alot more worth back then. A vic-20+tape was about the same price as a budget PC today...
Also take a look here:
http://sleepingelephant.com/ipw-web/bul ... c.php?t=96
PS. I made the graphics for my last vic game on a C128
/Anders
Well, as one of the active vic20-democoders, I also want to add my view here.
First of all, I couldn't care less of what kind of equipment people used 20-25 years ago. I'm not trying to be retro, I just want to have fun with a machine I got my hands on some years ago.
And I think the main reason for me making demos for unexpanded vic's is that all the other coders do the same (viznut, mermaid, soundemon and aeeben). It's a bit like a competition between all of us, and using expansions other than a diskdrive would feel like cheating
And crosscompilers... I just want to make the making of a demo comfortable for myself, if I didn't crosscompile I probably wouldn't make one single demo for vic20. It's not the tools that count, it's the result!
First of all, I couldn't care less of what kind of equipment people used 20-25 years ago. I'm not trying to be retro, I just want to have fun with a machine I got my hands on some years ago.
And I think the main reason for me making demos for unexpanded vic's is that all the other coders do the same (viznut, mermaid, soundemon and aeeben). It's a bit like a competition between all of us, and using expansions other than a diskdrive would feel like cheating
And crosscompilers... I just want to make the making of a demo comfortable for myself, if I didn't crosscompile I probably wouldn't make one single demo for vic20. It's not the tools that count, it's the result!
VIC Renaissance
I was a bit pissed when reading Boray's open letter for the first time, but I can see your point there.
For myself, I'm not particularly interested in the retro value of VIC 20. I prefer cross-compiling and like to consider VIC as an 'embedded' platform, although it's not.
VIC is a challenge, regardless the development environment or whether you're using extra memory or not.
I think it's easier to achieve good results with proper tools and a decent emulator such as VICE is great for learning about the inner workings of VIC. Be careful though, VICE is not yet 100% accurate. Always test the finished program on a real VIC!
If you prefer using a real VIC for the whole development process, go ahead, but I don't see any extra value in that. I think the only thing that matters is the results. Archaic development environment is not a good excuse for bad programming.
What comes to extra memory, I'm interested in the challenge of squishing a lot of stuff, or, some functional game etc. in small memory space. It's fun because the modern computers are wasting megabytes even for the simplest tasks.
The Minigame competitions are a real challenge - you'll come up with a lot of size-optimization ideas and new ways of programming that you'd never think of in any other context.
I got my first VIC in 1984, xmas. Back then the price was 995 FIM, plus 450 FIM for the tape drive.
(Btw. I just heard that Viznut/PWP also got his VIC in 1984 xmas, but his dad couldn't wait until xmas eve so Viznut got his VIC a couple of days earlier!)
In summer 1985 I got a C-64 with 1541 disk drive (probably around 3500-4000 FIM then). I also used the drive with my VIC 20 extensively - wow, that was just SO fast and handy after all that hassle with tapes.
Around 1993 I broke my original VIC. I was writing a simple 6502 compiler in Basic. All instructions worked fine except there was a bug in calculating some branch distances. After crash I tried making reset with scissors and probably blew up one of the VIA's.
If you buy a VIC 20 now, it's very likely that you will also get a disk drive, since many of the VIC's are owned by Commodore collectors. Also, many of the C-64 people are buying VIC's and already have 1541 drives.
In 1999-2000 I bought my second VIC. The price was 120 FIM (20 EUR) and this one came with an old 1541 drive.
I already broke this VIC once, but got it repaired in a TV-repair-shop(!). They took working VIA chips from a broken 1541-II drive.
This is the VIC 20 I've been using ever since. I've got a 3K Super Expander but haven't been using that very much since to my experience it's the rarest kind of memory expansion.
If anyone wants to donate a 16K+ memory expansion, I could try writing some fresh memory-intensive effects for that...
For myself, I'm not particularly interested in the retro value of VIC 20. I prefer cross-compiling and like to consider VIC as an 'embedded' platform, although it's not.
VIC is a challenge, regardless the development environment or whether you're using extra memory or not.
I think it's easier to achieve good results with proper tools and a decent emulator such as VICE is great for learning about the inner workings of VIC. Be careful though, VICE is not yet 100% accurate. Always test the finished program on a real VIC!
If you prefer using a real VIC for the whole development process, go ahead, but I don't see any extra value in that. I think the only thing that matters is the results. Archaic development environment is not a good excuse for bad programming.
What comes to extra memory, I'm interested in the challenge of squishing a lot of stuff, or, some functional game etc. in small memory space. It's fun because the modern computers are wasting megabytes even for the simplest tasks.
The Minigame competitions are a real challenge - you'll come up with a lot of size-optimization ideas and new ways of programming that you'd never think of in any other context.
I got my first VIC in 1984, xmas. Back then the price was 995 FIM, plus 450 FIM for the tape drive.
(Btw. I just heard that Viznut/PWP also got his VIC in 1984 xmas, but his dad couldn't wait until xmas eve so Viznut got his VIC a couple of days earlier!)
In summer 1985 I got a C-64 with 1541 disk drive (probably around 3500-4000 FIM then). I also used the drive with my VIC 20 extensively - wow, that was just SO fast and handy after all that hassle with tapes.
Around 1993 I broke my original VIC. I was writing a simple 6502 compiler in Basic. All instructions worked fine except there was a bug in calculating some branch distances. After crash I tried making reset with scissors and probably blew up one of the VIA's.
If you buy a VIC 20 now, it's very likely that you will also get a disk drive, since many of the VIC's are owned by Commodore collectors. Also, many of the C-64 people are buying VIC's and already have 1541 drives.
In 1999-2000 I bought my second VIC. The price was 120 FIM (20 EUR) and this one came with an old 1541 drive.
I already broke this VIC once, but got it repaired in a TV-repair-shop(!). They took working VIA chips from a broken 1541-II drive.
This is the VIC 20 I've been using ever since. I've got a 3K Super Expander but haven't been using that very much since to my experience it's the rarest kind of memory expansion.
If anyone wants to donate a 16K+ memory expansion, I could try writing some fresh memory-intensive effects for that...
Has anyone of you considered doing a tapemo, as I mentioned early in this thread? For some odd reason, a substantial amount of the users still seem to use and like the Datassette, and it would prove another challenge - make a tape fast loader or come up with something interesting enough to keep the viewer to the computer while next part loads. (if you strongly disagree on the aspects of running software in the same environment as it once was run - fine, we don't have to mention the r-word which at least 90% of the top developers seem to hate).
(if you strongly disagree on the aspects of running software in the same environment as it once was run - fine, we don't have to mention the r-word which at least 90% of the top developers seem to hate).Anders Carlsson