Preserving my old games

Navvarr · Post by **Navvarr** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:47 pm

Hi, I've got a pile of old Vic20 games from my youth. I'm very fond of my old Vic20 -however, the machine is getting on a bit now and I'd like to back up my old games that I programmed in my younger days.

I've got two old datasettes and they aren't very reliable- anyone got any tips on how to get the best out of them?- any tips?

I've taken one to pieces- given it a good clean- ie got rid of a lot of dust.

Should I use one of those old tape cleaners and demagnesers that you could buy in the 80's?

Are there any new datasettes available- perhaps with more features to load old games?
or perhaps adapters to enable me to use a newer cassette recorder which may be more reliable.

e5frog · Post by **e5frog** » Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:59 pm

If it works, don't do anything.

If the head is dirty, clean it with alcohol and a cotton swab.

If you have problems with it check that the belt is tight and elastic, if you have a radio/tv repair shop nearby they can usually order a new one for you, there are also online shops for that.

When loading, keep it away from magnetic sources such as the TV-screen.

Getting another datassette is usually easier and cheaper than repairing a faulty one. They are abundant, I think I have seven of them myself.

I'm not sure about demagnetizers, it says in the manuals that you should use them but if it's done wrong you can end up with a head more magnetic than it was before you used it. I have one of those de-mag tapes myself though...
If you want to do it safely you really need some measurement equipment (Gaussmeter, Teslameter) to check before and after - and those are expensive, various demag tools are much cheaper than the means to check if it's ok or not.

I'd load all my old programs and save them on a modern storage facility, fastest way is probably to make .tap files of the tapes and then you can run cleaning software on that and extract the programs. You can also load each program and then save it one by one to other (or same) media, like a real diskdrive or SD2IEC device like the uIEC.
http://store.go4retro.com/products/uIEC%7B47%7DSD.html
C64SD is an odd looking contraption, just need to be plugged in though:
http://www.manosoft.it/?lang=en
... and others

It's recommended to refresh magnetic media every ten years which means you load and rewrite the information on the same or a new tape with that interval as it fades gradually due to our magnetic environment. I've had a tape where the magnetic layer actually loosened from the plastic ribbon so that wouldn't have helped there - just wish I had saved the programs I made myself the first time I loaded it...

There are no modern datassettes in the usual sense (AFAIK), there are a few digital versions. What comes to mind is the DC2N:
http://www.luigidifraia.com/c64/dc2n/index.html

I also found this one, same idea, don't think it's for sale:
http://pc23te.dte.uma.es/C2N-II/

Then there's at least two different adapters for the datassette port you can get to play back wav from your PC or other source, one is called Cassadapt:
http://cbm8bit.com/index.php?option=com ... it-designs

Then there's also a model that has a shell and is sold on eBay, don't know if it has a brand name.

Or a DIY version:
http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/ ... 2tape.html

Drawback here is that they don't stop the audio stream from your PC (or mp3 player/CD player/audio tape deck etc) when the tape is supposed to stop, so for a multi-part programs you need to stop the audio playback manually. The DIY version has an indicator for the motor, I guess this could also control the playback device with some extra circuitry.

The 1541U-II has a tape adapter interface, but you currently need to use it from a C64 as there's no stand alone mode for it.

My recommendation would be to get one of the SD2IEC devices that you can buy, load the programs and save them to SD card. Copy them to your PC upload it in as many places as you can and if you have the time re-save them to tapes - they'll probably last just as long as they already did.

If you get a tape interface for your PC you can save them as taps, depends on your budget. You can also build it yourself, doesn't require many parts. The PCB connector that hooks to the datassette connector is probably the hard part but if you use a 1531 instead the mini-DIN connector can be found on eBay (and other places).
http://markus.brenner.de/adapter/index.html

You'll need to be running the recording tools from DOS.

Cheapest way to rescue the data is to load and re-save it, preferably on a new tape (normal bias, not chromeoxide) and as short as possible not to wear the datassette motor too much, hard to find less than 60 I guess...

Navvarr · Post by **Navvarr** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:40 pm

Thanks for the reply- given me lots to think about and look into.

Currently I've just ordered a 'new' C2N from ebay- the C2N has been tested and apparently works. -What it will make of my old tapes- well, we'll see.

I managed to get a couple of old programs loaded yesterday and promply saved them to my 5 1/4 floppy drive. -All seemed to go ok so far.

I've been trying to create TAP files using the 3 1/2 inch input on my PC motherboard. -the sound is being recorded and plays back fine, but VICE just doesn't want to know -so obviously something is wrong.

e5frog · Post by **e5frog** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:11 pm

3.5mm input I'm guessing.

There's three major things you need to attend to, the head adjustment of the tape player you're using, the sound level and if your sound card inverts the signal or not.

The available utilities usually have an invert option but the sound level vary a lot between different equipment. Somewhere at 70-100% volume is recommended AFAIK.

I'm guessing you use some wav to tap converter after that, VIC tapes doesn't have much support but I'd try running FinalTAP or TAPclean on them and see if that helps.

I think getting a Cassadapt would help you a lot if you're going down the audio route.

Navvarr · Post by **Navvarr** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:04 am

Thanks again for your help and advice.

I'll try again using the 3.5 jack and invert the sound- will give that a go and let you know how it goes.

Navvarr · Post by **Navvarr** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:00 am

Tried again using Audiotap and this time inverted the signal- had more success.

Managed to get Bug Bytes Scramble to load the loader and most of the main program- not quite perfectly- but hey- it works!!

Need to mess about with sound levels probably to get the recordings clearer.

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:05 am

Getting there for sure heh. Maybe you should list the commercial games you're trying to backup as it is likely most if not all have already been done to TAP.

e5frog · Post by **e5frog** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:51 am

Even if there is the same game available it's not always the same version that you have, it's a good feeling when you've managed to rescue your own tape into emulator friendly format.

If you get it good enough, FinalTAP or TAPclean can usually help. Commercial VIC 20 loaders (if any) could possibly be a problem.

Navvarr · Post by **Navvarr** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:54 am

I just used bug bytes Scramble to test out the set up. And Its works!
Since managed to rescue a couple of my old games! Its a great feeling. I can load them up for my kids. . . . 25+ years after I wrote them.
After I've saved my old games I might have a go at writing some new ones.

Kweepa · Post by **Kweepa** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:58 pm

We'd love to see the old games you wrote too!

Navvarr · Post by **Navvarr** » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:33 pm

Kweepa wrote:We'd love to see the old games you wrote too!

Yeah- ok- once I get a few of them up and running I'll let you guys have a look and a laugh at them!!

Navvarr · Post by **Navvarr** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:14 am

I've managed to save a few of my old games!

I've created TAP files and then 'snapshotted' then through VICE.

I've also managed to load a few into my old VIC20 and then used a Commodore 1541-II to save them to a floppy disks.

Is there an easy way to transfer my old 5 1/4 floppies to my PC?

-is there a cable I can get to link my current PC to the Commodore 1541-II?

Happy to let you guys see some of my old games- what is the best way to do that?

Cheers!

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 12:57 pm

Yes you can get cables to connect the disk drive to the PC, but if you have them in digital format already, you might as well save them out to D64 in Vice, and then make that available. Or just link the TAPs here and let someone else fiddle with them

Navvarr · Post by **Navvarr** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:09 pm

What kind of cable would I need?

Sorry for all the questions!! I've come this far- really great to be getting results and saving all my old games from 25 years ago!!

Some not bad games

- and some real turkeys too! -At least you'll get a laugh!

Mayhem · Post by **Mayhem** » Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:59 pm

I still use a 486 PC to do all my transfers, I presume you've only got something a lot more modern. I'll leave it to someone else to explain more options...