New Low-Cost 32k RAM expanders

[eslapion]

When contacting AP Circuits for the 24-28 pin adapters, I realized, it might be inexpensive to have a PCB for my 32k expanders.

Having a minimal features PCB would considerably reduce the cost of making such a device. However, the cheap PCBs of AP Circuit do not have the gold plating normally found on an edge connecting PCB, such as PCI cards and virtually all VIC20 cartridges. The boards traces are just coated with tin/lead.

So, what I need to know from you people:

1. Some large expanders for the VIC did not have gold plating on the edge connection in the past. They had only tin/lead coating. It did make them require intermittent cleaning the contacts but caused no major problems. Do you absolutely prefer a gold plated card ? It is still possible to have gold plating for an additional fee but then I will only order gold plated PCBs.

2. What price would you guys be willing to pay for a 32k ram expander? And what features would you like to see on it ?

3. Is the looks very important to you guys? Do you prefer paying less with no plastic casing or paying extra for a plastic casing ?

With minimum features, a 32k expander could drop down in price to about 35$. With gold plating the cost would be around 50$. A basic 32k RAM board would still come with a "read-write/read only" mode switch and reset pushbutton.

The cost of additionnal features would also be approximately cut in half compared to what I ask for right now because all the wirings would be integrated. Wether the board is gold plated or not changes nothing to this.

It would also become impossible to add slots to the board, however.

I await your feedback!

[Jaicen]

Personally, I'd want something on the edge connectors if only to ensure reliable operation. I wouldn't want copper oxide all over my connectors either!
Have you tried using liquid Tin? It might be just good enough to do the job, though it may also scrape off I don't know.

Either way, it's unlikely that i'll be getting one anytime soon, my VIC's dead If I did though, would it be possible for you to make it a 16K expansion, with one of the RAM's (EPROM) switchable to boot? that way you can have a 16K expansion, and a custom burnt cartridge all in one. Just an idea since I know you have an EPROM burner.

[eslapion]

Personally, I'd want something on the edge connectors if only to ensure reliable operation. I wouldn't want copper oxide all over my connectors either!
Have you tried using liquid Tin? It might be just good enough to do the job, though it may also scrape off I don't know.

Either way, it's unlikely that i'll be getting one anytime soon, my VIC's dead If I did though, would it be possible for you to make it a 16K expansion, with one of the RAM's (EPROM) switchable to boot? that way you can have a 16K expansion, and a custom burnt cartridge all in one. Just an idea since I know you have an EPROM burner.

ALL Professionally manufactured boards that include VIAs are coated in 60/40 tin/lead, the scenario you describe here is just plain impossible. The only problem with having tin/lead coating instead of gold plating on the fingers of the edge card is that carbo build-ups faster. Normally you just use a white plastic type erasor to remove it every now and then.

Description of the product WITHOUT gold plating here: (see "Prototypes include") http://www.apcircuits.com/services/proto1/overview.html

What you are asking for is actually more expensive than a 32k Cartridge. A single 32k RAM chip is 4$. To make 16k of RAM requires the usage of 2 x 8k RAM chips at 5$ each.

The point of making a 32k cartridge is to be able up to have up to 4 switchable ROM options to boot from AND maximum possible expansion.

So, to have 32k RAM AND ONE switchable ROM option with the less expensive board (Fully Tin coated as opposed to tin coated with gold plated fingers) would be 35$ for the basic board + 5$ for the additional option, total 40$

BTW, since both go in BLK3 at non-overlapping addresses, I consider both VICMON and Programmer's Aid to be a single option.

[Jaicen]

Actually, what I should have posted is that I only need 16K, since I don't really do any of my own development, but I guess it can't do any harm eh? I had assumed that you were using 2x16K RAM's, obviously this isn't the case.
So it is possible to have software burnt onboard the cartridge? If so it's a very attractive proposition at this price. Perhaps you could talk to Protovision or Cronosoft about offering some of their games on a cartidge. That way, it may be possible to get a larger order, thus dropping the price down for gold plating. I'd say $50 would be a great price for 32K RAM and three or four games. Plus it would be cool to get new cartidges available for the VIC.

With regards to the edge connectors, something occured to me after thinking about it for a while (as always, think before you post!).
The Tin is obviously not going to help with corrosion resistance, how many oxidised solder joints have i fixed in the past! Too many.

[carlsson]

Does Protovision have any VIC-20 software?

[eslapion]

After evaluation of the situation, if I make 50 boards, there is no difference in cost between gold plated and not gold plated.

In other words, if I have at least 5 people to start with ordering me 32k expansions, I can make them at 30$ plus 5$ per option WITH gold plating.

[Jaicen]

I just went over and checked and Protovision appear to only be offering C64 stuff
They do sell hardware though, so its conceivable that they'd be interested in selling RAM expansions. I know that i'm definitely interested in getting one if I can find another VIC or get mine fixed, especially if I can have some software burnt to it.

[eslapion]

I just went over and checked and Protovision appear to only be offering C64 stuff
They do sell hardware though, so its conceivable that they'd be interested in selling RAM expansions. I know that i'm definitely interested in getting one if I can find another VIC or get mine fixed, especially if I can have some software burnt to it.

Take a look at item number 330015255201 on eBay!

[Jaicen]

Take a look at the price-tag! I'm looking for bargains here man!!
I have no use for most of the peripherals really, though I wouldn't mind the programming manual. Besides, it's not confirmed as working, I don't think for a second it was a garage clearance find. I guess for a new-comer looking for a complete system £35 is not bad, but i've got pretty much everything I need, except a working 6561 that is Besides, I've decided to avoid EvilBAY unless absolutely necessary.

[eslapion]

Take a look at the price-tag! I'm looking for bargains here man!!
I have no use for most of the peripherals really, though I wouldn't mind the programming manual. Besides, it's not confirmed as working, I don't think for a second it was a garage clearance find. I guess for a new-comer looking for a complete system £35 is not bad, but i've got pretty much everything I need, except a working 6561 that is Besides, I've decided to avoid EvilBAY unless absolutely necessary.

For reasons that mystify me, there seems to be very high price tags on PAL VIC-20s. Here in north america, NTSC VICs are sold for about 15$ each.

For my part, does a single cart with 32k RAM AND VICMON AND Programmer's Aid (VICMON with P.A. is a single option because they fit in a single block) AND Super Expander in a single Cartridge for 40$ sound like a bargain to you ?

That's what this cartridge can do...

[eslapion]

Here is a picture of the design for the PCB of the 32k expander.

http://www.eskimo.com/~areed/eslapion/expander.jpg

This picture shows the bottom layer in priority.

I have only one order so far. Hope there will be more soon!

[Thomas Hechelhammer]

Deleted by Thomas.

Too many people upset ...

-- Thomas

[carlsson]

8 Euro is just over 10 USD, but it is just a minor point.

Over here, people try to sell those old Commodore 16K expanders for $25-30 each. Maybe they have a collectors' value, but for someone who would rather use it than collect it, I would not flinch about $35-50 for a newly manufactured 32K board, in particular if it came with software options (pirated software, but anyhow). OTOH, I already have all the memory expansions I need and a little more than that.

[Jaicen]

I'd say it's a pretty reasonable price for a newly manufactured peripheral, of which there is no existing equivalent.
16K memory expansions regularly go for more than £15 when you factor in shipping, so a 32K expansion for just a little more sounds like a deal to me. especially considering the age of the RAM chips in these things.

Sure, I could probably design and build one myself (minus the gold plating) for less than £10, but i'd be paying for Eslapion's time and effort, as well as the development that's gone into making a reliable product. I've no doubt if I made one i'd have to iron out several bugs before I got it right.
I intend to learn ML so having an onboard monitor would definitely be a boon in my view. If I can get VicTracker on there as well that'd be pretty much everything I need!

[Thomas Hechelhammer]

The last 16k Expansion I bought was here in Germany for 5 DM.

5 DM is 2,50 Euro, and it was new (=unused) and sealed.

My first RAM Expansion I bought was about 299 DM, which is 150 Euro.
But this was 1983 when memory was still expensive and I had to pay 800 DM for my first VIC20.

Today I would order a RAM Expansion with at least 64k, a PLC and some self-configurable ROM-sockets (or flash-RAM) where I can put my monitor inside.

But this is part of my new hardware-project I'm figuring out ...

I'm always interested to know how much to pay for professional produced PCBs (single- or doublesided, gold-plated) with an amount of 50 pieces.

-- Thomas