some games don't work with VICE

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lucifershalo
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some games don't work with VICE

Post by lucifershalo »

like Donkey Kong, Centipede

probably has to do with memory or other settings

thanks for your help
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beamrider
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Re: some games don't work with VICE

Post by beamrider »

I've played those games myself in VICE and they do work if you attach the cartridge images at the correct location.

The easiest way to play cartridge games in VICE is to attach a megacart dump image (one can be downloaded here: ftp://8bitfiles.net/serve-remote-file/m ... 1f0784.rom)

Attach the image in the following way..

Image

..and then play most cartridge (and other) games from the MegaCart menu.
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Mayhem
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Re: some games don't work with VICE

Post by Mayhem »

What version of VICE are you using? IIRC v2.3 had an issue with cartridges attached at $A000 for the VIC emulator XVIC.
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Mike
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Re: some games don't work with VICE

Post by Mike »

"How can I get these cartridge games to work with VICE?"

That would be a more appropriate title for the topic. You can safely assume they *work* with VICE.

Even if some VICE versions might have difficulties with cartridge images because of a shitty regression bug, in general all known cartridges can be used with VICE (sole exception known to me: BANDITS). That being said, download these files:

ftp://ftp.zimmers.net/pub/cbm/vic20/rom ... g-2000.prg
ftp://ftp.zimmers.net/pub/cbm/vic20/rom ... g-a000.prg

and

ftp://ftp.zimmers.net/pub/cbm/vic20/rom ... e-2000.prg
ftp://ftp.zimmers.net/pub/cbm/vic20/rom ... e-a000.prg

For both games, both files ("2000" and "a000") are necessary. Those are not two versions assembled for different addresses, but the two parts of the game, contained in two distinct memory ranges. If you only had one of the two files, the game is incomplete!

When VICE is started up (now the example for "Donkey Kong"), first:

Settings > VIC20 settings... > Memory, No expansion memory

(which removes all RAM expansions), then:

File > Detach cartridge image(s)

(VIC resets), then

File > Attach cartridge image ... > Add to generic cartridge ... > 4/8/16 KB at $2000... > "Donkey Kong-2000.prg" (from file requester)

(VIC resets again), and then finally:

File > Attach cartridge image ... > Add to generic cartridge ... > 4/8 KB at $A000... > "Donkey Kong-a000.prg" (again from file requester)

... et voilà, Donkey Kong starts!



@mods: when OP has replied, please move this topic to the "Emulation & ..." section. Thanks.
lucifershalo
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Re: some games don't work with VICE

Post by lucifershalo »

thank you all for your replies
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Re: some games don't work with VICE

Post by Mayhem »

Mike wrote:Even if some VICE versions might have difficulties with cartridge images because of a shitty regression bug, in general all known cartridges can be used with VICE (sole exception known to me: BANDITS).
Out of interest, how long is it supposed to take before the issues with Bandits appears in Vice? Because I've had the game running 20-30 minutes in emulation and it's still been fine. This is with v2.4 of XVIC.
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Vic 2000
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Re: some games don't work with VICE

Post by Vic 2000 »

Whould it be possible to make emulation specific versions of some dumps?

For exemple

* Instead of inserting crt image 1
* Then inserting crt image 2

Before you can run Donkey Kong, why not simply merge them together as one single image that autostarts and tells the emulator the proper configuration to use?

Same thing when using images of cassettes, diskettes or prg dumps. Why not add some info that simply tells the emulator, this is a 3K game and this is a 16k game. I know that Borays little program fixes the prg files but this option should really be there in VICE itself. That would make things easier for most novices and less unessessary work for us too.

Just klick and go.

For exemple, when running 8bit Atari, there's the .bas format for games in basic. The emulator (Altirra) knows what to do when you use such dump and autostarts in basic mode. Before that you was forced to switch to basic yourself within the emulator when games in basic was on standard diskette och cassette format (.atr and .cas)

Perhaps something similar could be done when emulating Vic 20?
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Mike
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Re: some games don't work with VICE

Post by Mike »

Vic 2000 wrote:Whould it be possible to make emulation specific versions of some dumps?[...]
That is, what the *.crt format is intended for. Problem is, someone would have to produce all those dumps.
Same thing when using images of cassettes, diskettes or prg dumps. Why not add some info that simply tells the emulator, [...]
That also has been discussed here to great lengths. Main issue being, the VIC-20 is not a console, but a computer. With some interesting quirks regarding memory set up.

Those images of cassettes, disks and prg files are ultimately that: storage images. They're intended to be used by the emulator, sure, but another of their main uses also is to reproduce the original media. Any extra information stored alongside for the emulator would be of no use for the original hardware, as it does not correspond to anything on the original media; furthermore that extra information is likely dependent on the exact version of the emulator - that already led to some issues with the *.crt format and is one of the reasons, that the *.crt format isn't more widespread and we still have to deal with raw memory dumps of the cartridges.

Furthermore, unless the correct RAM configuration has already been set up, the standard auto-start behaviour of VICE (loading everything with ',8,1') is a PITA. With a wrong config, anything in BASIC (this includes ML programs with BASIC stubs, a.k.a. 'SYS lines') is forced to load to the original address, but the emulated VIC-20 expects it at another address - the other RAM config shifts the start of the BASIC memory and possibly the screen RAM as well. This either results in no reaction after RUN, or overwriting the screen or giving ?SYNTAX ERRORs. Making a program resilient against a wrong RAM config is unnecessarily complicated by this. However, I do have some solution in the works, which will work on both original hardware and VICE and will either continue the boot process or give hints to the user, which RAM config is necessary, without crashing the machine.
Mayhem wrote:Out of interest, how long is it supposed to take before the issues with Bandits appears in Vice? Because I've had the game running 20-30 minutes in emulation and it's still been fine. This is with v2.4 of XVIC.
Currently I'm using xvic of WinVICE 2.4.2 x86 r27141, and BANDITS crashes right at the start. With my old 1.16 installation, the game would run fine for a few minutes, and then lose sync of the (VIA implemented) raster interrupt.

From what I know, the game relies on some not to well documented behaviour of the VIAs right after power-up, and doesn't (re-)initialise them as it is usually done. At some time, some members of the VICE team wrote, that fixing VICE for BANDITS would require a thorough reorganisation of the interrupt management of VICE. Maybe a newer version of VICE than my r27141 works now - but I'm not too eager to replace it, as it was the first version after some years I could run on my PCs without issues of unstable frame rates, crackling sound, etc. (that's also the reason I kept the 1.16 version).
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Vic 2000
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Re: some games don't work with VICE

Post by Vic 2000 »

I have a simple solution that might work.

The developer of Xvic could add a feature that allows us to use a special setting for each game and save that particular setting.

Then we only have to configure Xvic the first time we run a game. :)

Shouldn't be to very hard to implement? A save settings for each game, that is stored in a list in Xvic. The list contains the name of the game and the emulator setting.
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Re: some games don't work with VICE

Post by Mike »

Vic 2000 wrote:The developer of Xvic could add a feature that allows us to use a special setting for each game and save that particular setting. [...]
This is not the business of an emulator, of VICE in particular.

VICE is intended to emulate Commodore 8-bit machines, as faithful to the original as possible. If you work with real hardware, you will be confronted with the very same issues! As I wrote, the VIC-20 is a computer, not a console. You don't have a 3-figure number of 'official game releases', but thousands of games, tools, utilities and other programs; old and new ones; commercial, homebrewn, freely arranged on disk images, etc.

If you want more comfort in playing VIC-20 games on the PC, there is GB20. It features an entire database alongside the games and will setup its integrated VICE for each of the games so they are started with the correct RAM configuration.
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Vic 2000
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Re: some games don't work with VICE

Post by Vic 2000 »

Aha, Gamebase 20 is the way to go for autoconfig of VICE.

I will not argue because i understand your point.

But i will give a bit you my view too.

I was both Vic 20, Atari 800 XL and Atari ST owner for many years. I used my ST mostly for serious stuff like midi, dtp, word processing and much more. Today i use emulators for emulating all these computers. In fact i have a real physical STE in the bed room but i wouldn't even dream of to use it, why?

The emulator let me fast forward past boring loading times, intros or things that you can't click away. The emulator let me save in a game whenever i want. Take captures of both stills and motion. The emulator let me use huge amount of ram if i want, change virtual processors, use virtual i/o ports or a 500 GB harddrive, or several. I can swith operating system with a single click and use lots of features that never was there in the orginal hardware.

And lots of more

That's why i like emulators so much. I hated the slow disk loading, to not have enough of ram, or the lack of a descent harddrive. Hardware was never my thing, i was the typical software guy, and is, still today. Now i can try out that huge monochrome monitor that costed over thousands pounds back then. And it don't cost anything because it's a virtual monitor.

I have the opinion that emulators should be easy to use so any noob can run them i no time, make them simple while keeping them enough featured for the real hardcore veteran to use. Two modes, adcanced and beginner.

But that's my view and i think appz like Gamebase 20 is a good way to go for the noob or the comfortable user (like me). ;)

Thank you for your opinion.
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Re: some games don't work with VICE

Post by Mayhem »

Mike wrote:Currently I'm using xvic of WinVICE 2.4.2 x86 r27141, and BANDITS crashes right at the start. With my old 1.16 installation, the game would run fine for a few minutes, and then lose sync of the (VIA implemented) raster interrupt.
That's really odd then because I've never seen that. I had to be able to play Bandits for a fair while to take screenshots for the recent Vic20 article I wrote for Retro Gamer magazine. I am running XVIC in NTSC mode when playing Bandits btw, are you? Really can't explain the two outcomes. I am using W7 32 bit, what OS are you using?
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Re: some games don't work with VICE

Post by Mike »

Mayhem wrote:I am running XVIC in NTSC mode when playing Bandits btw, are you?
Of course. I know BANDITS is NTSC only.
Really can't explain the two outcomes. I am using W7 32 bit, what OS are you using?
Vista Ultimate 32 bit. I don't think it has anything to do with the OS, though, rather the exact build of WinVICE. Here's how it looks on my setup:

Image

The stripes in black and blue move over the screen.
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Re: some games don't work with VICE

Post by Boray »

Vic 2000 wrote:Before you can run Donkey Kong, why not simply merge them together as one single image that autostarts and tells the emulator the proper configuration to use?
You can do that with snapshot images in VICE.
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Re: some games don't work with VICE

Post by Boray »

With PRG Starter:
Dual cartridge images on Vic-20

Some cartridge images on Vic-20 are in two parts that goes to different memory addresses. They are normally named something like SpaceMan_6000.prg and SpaceMan_A000.prg. To start these, do like this: Double click the non-A000 part. Then drag and drop the A000 part into the VICE window. Press Alt-R to start.
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