HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

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beamrider
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby beamrider » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:38 am

It looks like MisFit has abandoned this community as a result of this issue. He was last active nearly 2 weeks ago despite being active on twitter and the Facebook Vic 20 communities.

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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby highinfidelity » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:23 am

I still can't believe how ridicolous and pretentious this anti-HASL hate campaign is.

My goodness, a fellow comes out with a new cartridge game for the VIC in the year 2017 (I say: 2017!!!) and someone can't see anything but the contact comb, wether it's HASL or not. :roll:
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby eslapion » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:15 am

MCes wrote:Eslapion,
I respect the others religion,
but the fundamentalism is out of my respect.

Electrical engineering is not a religion, it is an applied science.

It does include the usage of various types of metal, including precious ones, for their conductive and mechanical properties.

I told you: or you post the list of people that had problem with this kind of connector, or you are only speaking about your personal religion!

I cannot post a list that encompasses millions of people and affected various electronic devices all over the world.

Everybody can express own ideas, but I think that is necessary make a distinction between idea/suspect/conviction/proof/.

I THINK that "edge connector" was a bad solution adopted by Commodore (and other) for movible cartridges, but it was cheap, so....

I THINK that each "pcb finisch " generate a different kind of contact-problem: there isn't a perfect "pcb finisching"!

I THINK that without the names of people that had to repair owner VIC20 because they don't use gold cartridges your discussion is: the WC toilet has to be cleaned with "Water with gas" that is better than "mineral water".... Sorry, but without evidences I'll use the water from the pipe......

Somebody more diplomaticcally told you:
"Try looking outside, there's actually more serious problems in the world...
If anyone got connector issues from using this cartridge, I will personally repair it, free of charge."


I can be direct (using English, a language that isn't mine....), but my ear is open to listen, I am not a fundamentalist.

I think that my position is clear, and I'm tired of this polemics, so in future I'll try to write only "But who had problem? the names please..."

Your ignorance about the EMF resulting of dissimilar metal contacts as well as other aspects of edge connectors is the cause of this 'polemic' which isn't one at all.

Every single Commodore cartridges for the VIC-20, C64 and Amiga Zorro I, II and III cards as well as all ISA, VLB, PCI, AGP and PCIe cards for PCs I have ever seen sold in large quantities in any computer stores or on the Internet all had gold plating on their edge connectors.

Of course, all the companies which did this are wrong and you're right... because I don't give you a list? Do I have to give you a list of people who died after ingesting bleach to prove it's not good for you ?

The people who wrote this article and posted these photos are also members of 'my religion'... I suppose.
https://db-electronics.ca/2017/05/31/su ... ion-carts/

Mike too, I guess. He's not exactly in admiration for me...
Mike wrote:Gold plated edge connectors are, without doubt, the best choice. The poster in the article points out, though, that a high number of insertions with HASL finish foremostly expose the copper below the tin, which then leads to corrosion on the edge connector fingers.

...

So - tfw8b and Misfit would be well advised to take that recommendation to heart, especially with such a high-profile product. No one is free from errors though, and supposedly it's the first time it has been pointed out to the manufactorer, that he shouldn't miss out on this little bit of extra cost.


When you know what you do, you use HASL on the edge connectors of prototypes you know you won't use often. You don't use that on cartridges you sell at large because it's irresponsible.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby highinfidelity » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:25 am

You are constantly posting, re-posting, and then posting once again AD NAUSEAM the same "article". I have news for you: we're not idiots, we can read and we read it first time around. Is it so hard for you to understand that people may disagree with what you post? Quotes are because that's not a real "article", it's mostly an opinionated commercial ad that promotes specific layering services. I've never - repeat never - in my whole life ever seen a HAL finish that looks like crap as in the first picture.

Since this is such a terrifying problem that causes you nightmares and has irreparably destroyed *zillions* of VIC ports, could you please send to me some samples of such connectors destroyed forever by this terrible agent? I'm sure you have dozens around. I'm really curious to see how it happens that some metal debris - if any - can't be cleaned with a toothbush and some "avio" gasoline or alcohol.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby MCes » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:37 am

OK,
I think that positions are clear, everybody can start from this thread to study a little this theme (if it's an own interest), I would suggest dampening this thread.

Only for clarity I have to close a ring:
Eslapion, you defined me "ignorant", with a link where is explained the word also with referring to Socrates.
If you go on WIKI (about Socrates) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates you can read:
To illustrate the use of the Socratic method, a series of questions are posed to help a person or group to determine their underlying beliefs and the extent of their knowledge. The Socratic method is a negative method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those that lead to contradictions. It was designed to force one to examine one's own beliefs and the validity of such beliefs.

"what I do not know I do not think I know" equivalent: "I know that I know nothing."

I want specify that I can see myself in this ignorance, yes Eslapion, we found a point where I agree with you! :D :wink:
“Don’t argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” (Mark Twain ?)

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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby eslapion » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:28 am

MCes wrote:Eslapion, you defined me "ignorant", with a link where is explained the word also with referring to Socrates.
If you go on WIKI (about Socrates) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates you can read:
To illustrate the use of the Socratic method, a series of questions are posed to help a person or group to determine their underlying beliefs and the extent of their knowledge. The Socratic method is a negative method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those that lead to contradictions. It was designed to force one to examine one's own beliefs and the validity of such beliefs.

"what I do not know I do not think I know" equivalent: "I know that I know nothing."

I want specify that I can see myself in this ignorance, yes Eslapion, we found a point where I agree with you! :D :wink:

I have a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering, not in philosophy.

What I did learn at ETS is that all edge connectors should be gold plated. Using HASL will cause a degradation of the board and gradually coat the receptacle connector with poor conductivity material.

Since you don't happen to have a master's degree or Ph.D. in the matter well, I prefer to side with people who do. What I do know of the electrical, mechanical and chemical aspects of this issue tells me you are wrong.

highinfidelity wrote:Since this is such a terrifying problem that causes you nightmares and has irreparably destroyed *zillions* of VIC ports, could you please send to me some samples of such connectors destroyed forever by this terrible agent?

I have lost my Turbo/XE cart. Since I didn't use it for a very long time, I could've sent it to you.

I'll be at WoC next week. I'll see if I can grab another Super Snapshot V5 from Joe Palumbo. Since I have dozens of extra C64 cart port connectors, I could sacrifice one for the exercice.

BTW, the worn out carts in the photos were inserted and removed hundreds of time.

Is it so hard for you to understand that people may disagree with what you post?

You can disagree that the earth revolves around the sun and that micro-organisms cause diseases but that doesn't make it a scientifically validated fact. Doing that is called obscurantism.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby norm8332 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:46 am

1947_eating_popcorn_and_drinking_be.gif
1947_eating_popcorn_and_drinking_be.gif (33.05 KiB) Viewed 160 times

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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby highinfidelity » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:51 am

eslapion wrote:
Is it so hard for you to understand that people may disagree with what you post?

You can disagree that the earth revolves around the sun and that micro-organisms cause diseases but that doesn't make it a scientifically validated fact. Doing that is called obscurantism.

I'd say instead that your claim that HASL stuff breaks irreparably VIC connectors is very, very, very far from being a "scientifically validated fact". Nobody here agrees with your claim, to begin with, so rather than call the rest of the world "obscurantist" you should ask yourself if YOU are perhaps an integralist. And I also see that your arguments "misteriously" passed from VIC connectors to C64 connectors. Why so? May it be because there is no VIC connector on this world ever broken by a HASL PCB?
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby MCes » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:58 am

Why to link humanistic pages to explain own position and at the same time writing "I have a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering, not in philosophy" if into the same link is findable elements of the opposite position?

I agree with Eslapion when he declare that facts aren't opinion, as the observation (if done with onesty and rigorously):
I every seen that the engineers that make projects normally has 2 hands: into the first put the advantages of a particular solution, into the other hand put the disadvantages, after they assign a specific weigth at every elements and only after this process they decide which solution is MORE APPROPRIATE (engineers know that don't exist any "perfect solution").

Only the boss (that can be engineer) think that own idea is not only a good idea, but "the best idea" and in every cases and for every situations.
Obviously who don't believe blindly at the boss is an heretic and the theme proposed has to be "damnatio memoriae" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnatio_memoriae

I'm not an engineer? I'm not a boss!!! :D :wink:
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby groepaz » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:52 am

just let it go...

and share some of that popcorn will ya? 8)

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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby eslapion » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:25 am

highinfidelity wrote:I'd say instead that your claim that HASL stuff breaks irreparably VIC connectors is very, very, very far from being a "scientifically validated fact".

Perhaps that's because I never claimed that. You interpret what I posted and turn it into a hyperbole.

I do claim using HASL can cause serious problems. I claim replacing the connector is the only way I know for sure will fix these problems. I don't think I know everything.

Nobody here agrees with your claim, to begin with, so rather than call the rest of the world "obscurantist" you should ask yourself if YOU are perhaps an integralist.

I suppose Mike is an integralist too then... :lol:

And I also see that your arguments "misteriously" passed from VIC connectors to C64 connectors. Why so? May it be because there is no VIC connector on this world ever broken by a HASL PCB?

You can't figure out it's exactly the same except for one detail: On the VIC-20 connectors, pin spacing is 0.156" while pin spacing on the C64 connectors 0.1".

Using HASL edge connectors on the C64 cartridge port does the same as on the VIC-20.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby eslapion » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:01 pm

MCes wrote:I'm not an engineer? I'm not a boss!!! :D :wink:

Yeah but you sell stuff to people who may not know about the possible consequences of using a HASL coated edge connector in a gold plated receptacle. As such, they are not taking an informed decision.

When I bought a Super Snapshot V5.22 from Joe Palumbo back in december 2007, I knew, it was HASL, I knew what it could do and I lived with it. My solution was simple; only connect this cartridge in a port expander. Same with the Turbo/XE.

On my VIC-20, I used the last slot of my Cardco CB/3S with HASL cartridges and prototypes until it was unusable instead of damaging the internal VIC-20 cartridge port slot. I replaced it in 2015.

I knew of the risk, I knew of the consequences and I took decisions accordingly.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby MCes » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:10 pm

hey boss,
or do you prefer "engineer"?
One (or both of them), you that think that my project is an "poisoned apple", could so kindly to explain to us (simple mortals) the avveneristic strategy that your "piece of paper" suggested to you for reducing the 5V of C64 to 3,3V on your PLAnkton?
For help you:
plakton2.JPG


The engineer that design, realize and commercialize PLAnkton is telling me that my cartridge is dangerous for bad design choosing, so much that i have to write on it "it harms your VIC20 health".....

I have to believe in a person so expertin the subject! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby groepaz » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:15 pm

LOL

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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby eslapion » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:59 pm

MCes wrote:hey boss,
or do you prefer "engineer"?
One (or both of them), you that think that my project is an "poisoned apple", could so kindly to explain to us (simple mortals) the avveneristic strategy that your "piece of paper" suggested to you for reducing the 5V of C64 to 3,3V on your PLAnkton?
...

I have to believe in a person so expertin the subject! :lol: :lol: :lol:

PLAnkton is not supposed to operate at 3.3V... perhaps a bit of circuit analysis would help you figure it out...

To ensure compatibility with the C64 Reloaded MK1 which has a few 74HCxx logic circuits as well as all C64 which may have been repaired with this type of chips, the XC9536XL on PLAnkton operates at 3.6V, NOT 3.3. While 74LS ICs used by Commodore have a logic threashold of 1.3V, 74HC logic circuits have a logic threshold of 2.5V but most manufacturers recommend signaling a logic 1 at 3.5V or more for these chips.

I suppose you took the time to read the datasheet of the XC9536XL before you :lol: :lol:
http://www.xilinx.com/support/documenta ... /ds058.pdf

The recommended operating voltage is from 3.0 to 3.6...

I took this decision based on the fact Skoe noted real PLAs signal 0-3.7v so 3.6V is extremely close. Here: http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/ ... sected.pdf

I also note since the particular unit has the resistors turned upside down, it was built by e5frog.

The components you mentioned act as an RC filter which has a cut-off frequency of 1/(2*3.14159265*27*1e-6)=5900hz. That's low enough to remove any junk from the power supply or noise caused by other components in the C64. It provides 10 times the recommended decoupling.

The voltage drop of the resistor and diode is 0.022mAx27Ohms+0.75v=1.344v. Then 5V-1.344=3.656, a tad above the recommended 3.6v but well below the absolute maximum rating of 4.0v.

Happy ?

BTW, this was extensively discussed on Melon64. It's because of the components you just mentioned that it is virtually impossible to distinguish the output of PLAnkton vs a genuine Commodore PLA. It also makes it extremely easy to check for defects as a faulty unit with a short will consume more current and the voltage at the CPLD will drop.

Would you like oscilloscope captures of the voltage at the CPLD Vcc/GND as well as those of the current consumption ? I am dying to use my recently purchased TDS3014B...

Can I suggest some useful reading before you :lol: :lol: at stuff you don't understand... https://www.mheducation.com/highered/pr ... 73885.html
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