HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

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eslapion
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby eslapion » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:11 pm

TLovskog wrote:...
Actually the Vector 3662 uses CEM-1 as base material (double checked my memory on the data sheet). This is a paper core sandwiched between a continuous woven glassfiber cloth (one side) and then infiltrated with a flame resistant epoxy resin binder. CEM-2 has woven glassfiber on both sides. CEM-3 which also has chopped fiberglass in the core. Cheap materials.

The only true non glassfiber material I know of is the old FR-1 and FR-2. They where true paper and phenolic resin based with copper. However, they tend to have a very poor bonding strength to copper, delaminates easily and absorbs moister. But cheap and easy to punch all those holes all at once. FR-3 was the same, but with epoxy resin.
...

Can't argue with the absolute master in this matter.

Just a question: The aforementioned Vector 3662 looks light yellow in color. The Radio Shack boards look dark brown and porous on the edges; what are these made of ? They don't seem to be top notch material at all.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby TLovskog » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:25 am

Hi,

CEM1 is typically white or yellowish. It is the glassfiber/epoxy resin outer layer that makes that. Often the core viewed from the side can be a slightly different.

2018-01-06_10-03-42.png
Crossview of CEM material


FR2 is paper and phenolic resin and brownish in color. This then actually has no fiberglass. Neither woven nor fillament.

To make the picture complete FR4 (which is the absolute standard material) is a bit "frosty" and semitransparent. It is based on Epoxy Resin and woven glassfiber.

2018-01-06_10-03-43.png
FR2, CEM1 and FR4


A routed edge is also much cleaner. A v-cut (pizza slicer type) edge can have more coarse edges and appear porous. Laser cut edges can have sharp ends of glassfiber sticking out (because the resin melts more/faster).

pcb-scored-board-edge-after-seperation.jpg
V-cut


Then there are tons of different resins and blends of phenolic / epoxy resins, different additives, different types of fiberglass cloth etc that affect color.


Coombs Printed Circuits Handbook (the standard literature) probably has 100 pages or so around this subject. 1000+ glorious pages of the worlds knowledge around PCB's and their manufacturing. A bit expensive though ;-)

(This is the 5th edition. The sixth edition also includes texts from Happy Holden.)


coombs__printed_circuits_handbook.jpg
Coombs


Edit: Added v-cut picture.
BR
Thomas Lövskog

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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby eslapion » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:08 am

TLovskog wrote:FR2 is paper and phenolic resin and brownish in color. This then actually has no fiberglass. Neither woven nor fillament.

To make the picture complete FR4 (which is the absolute standard material) is a bit "frosty" and semitransparent. It is based on Epoxy Resin and woven glassfiber.

A picture is worth a million words! Most definitely the Radio Shack boards are made of FR2.

In your professional opinion, how important is it to avoid the presence of fiberglass in circuit boards used for C64/VIC-20/C128 ? Can the shape of the edge of that board (beveling, rouding, flat) mitigate the detrimental effects ?

What are the long term effects of using HASL circuit boards in C64/VIC-20/C128 cartridge port connectors ? (on the female connectors - we already know about the effects on the boards themselves)
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby norm8332 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:32 am

I got a picture of a non-CR connector. It isn't easy to get a completely in-focus picture because the focal distance is very small and the pins are orientated away from the camera.

The wear on this VIC with the gold contacts is considerably less. Now please take into account that this is just the first one I have looked at and I don't have any information on use. Note that although there is a discoloration on the leading edge of the wear pattern that could be caused by inserting abrasive boards, it is nowhere near the wear on the CR that actually has an large indentation. The bottom set of pins is in the best focus and there you can see the discoloration best. I will check more VICs with this connector and if I find considerably different results I will update.
vlcsnap-2018-01-06-11h20m04s308.png


ADDED EDIT:
This is another one. Note that the connector is different although it is gold plated. The wear is more on this one but it doesn't appear to be worn through. There also appears to be a metallic powder present on the sides of the pins. Possibly HASL powder?
vlcsnap-2018-01-06-11h45m48s253.png

vlcsnap-2018-01-06-11h48m26s836.png


Yet another different one. On this one it appears the gold is worn completely off on the leading edge. You can see the line of the under-plating. The gold plating appears to be very thin.
vlcsnap-2018-01-06-12h25m58s012.png


Last one today. This one is the same type as the last and shows similar wear.
vlcsnap-2018-01-06-13h14m09s183.png


It appears that the gold plated connector is of varying quality on different 2-pin VIC-20s suggesting a larger potential issue. Therefore maybe cartridge design should be scrutinized in respect to it's contribution to the wear on the connector as suggested.

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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby MCes » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:06 pm

Gyro Gearloose wrote:Don't worry; MCes will simply scratch off the part numbers. If you can't see the part number, you can't see the problem.

It's brilliant, really.


Another person that spit on job of others without know any details of it....

The chips on pics of my +37k RAM expansion are masked with ink-pen for preserve the paternity of this original project: it isn't been "copy & paste" from other sources like often other people do.

For your curiosity the two chips are a RAM and a PLD.
The input pin of PLD need (min) 2.00V to a sure determination of the "1" logic state....
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby eslapion » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:11 pm

norm8332 wrote:It appears that the gold plated connector is of varying quality on different 2-pin VIC-20s suggesting a larger potential issue. Therefore maybe cartridge design should be scrutinized in respect to it's contribution to the wear on the connector as suggested.

For one thing I have to say you did a rather impressive job at taking photos in your last post.

Would you be able to associate these photos with a brand and/or model of connector ?
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby MCes » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:33 pm

MCes wrote:Hasl, gold, hard gold.
Nothing of this are perfect...

For example in military/professional board (but also on the board inside your PC) the fingers of edge connections are not Hasl, because is needed to prevent false contact for oxidation, but this kind of connector are "not-movible": you connect it at starting life of the devices, and it remain fix for the life....
I never seen, in professional equipment, edge connectors used for movible connections! ( movible: hundreds of insertion during product-life)

For example a movible connections done with HARD GOLD could be dangerous: the hardest surface scratch the softest surface, so the hard gold pcb could scratch the metal part of connection inside the VIC20 connector...... do you want this?

If an HASL-finger could be oxidate it will be sufficient the normal insertion into connector to "scratch" the oxide into the point of contact.... the mobility of cart become the key to eliminate the false contact problem...


I've note that "the time is a gentleman" because, like I told, every finishing has a different problem.... the hardest surface will scratch the softest surface so we can only decide if is better have maintenance on PCB connector or on VIC20 connector.
For example the abrasive property of "hard gold" could scratch the VIC20 connector.

(pic from a post of norm8332)

conn.PNG
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby eslapion » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:41 pm

MCes wrote:I've note that "the time is a gentleman" because, like I told, every finishing has a different problem.... the hardest surface will scratch the softest surface so we can only decide if is better have maintenance on PCB connector or on VIC20 connector.
For example the abrasive property of "hard gold" could scratch the VIC20 connector.

You've posted a photo of the only cartridge port connector found in VIC-20s that doesn't have gold plating... what scratched it is not gold. It's fiberglass or ordinary wear...
longevity_d4vv.jpg

From norm8332 ...
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby MCes » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:48 pm

eslapion wrote:
MCes wrote:I've note that "the time is a gentleman" because, like I told, every finishing has a different problem.... the hardest surface will scratch the softest surface so we can only decide if is better have maintenance on PCB connector or on VIC20 connector.
For example the abrasive property of "hard gold" could scratch the VIC20 connector.

You've posted a photo of the only cartridge port connector found in VIC-20s that doesn't have gold plating... what scratched it is not gold. It's fiberglass or ordinary wear...


When something isn't in your direction you can only "cherry pick".

Have a discussion with Eslapion isn't wrong but idle.

Everybody can note it.

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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby MCes » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:52 pm

eslapion wrote:
MCes wrote:I've note that "the time is a gentleman" because, like I told, every finishing has a different problem.... the hardest surface will scratch the softest surface so we can only decide if is better have maintenance on PCB connector or on VIC20 connector.
For example the abrasive property of "hard gold" could scratch the VIC20 connector.

You've posted a photo of the only cartridge port connector found in VIC-20s that doesn't have gold plating... what scratched it is not gold. It's fiberglass or ordinary wear...
longevity_d4vv.jpg

From norm8332 ...


cherry picking:
1 mm of insertion course on pcb material is important, 4? 5? 6? mm of insertion course (with the maximum spring pressure) on abrasive material ( hard gold finger ) is not important...
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby eslapion » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:58 pm

MCes wrote:1 mm of insertion course on pcb material is important, 4? 5? 6? mm of insertion course on abrasive material ( hard gold finger ) is not important...


Question for TLovskog :
Are we supposed to consider gold as an abrasive material when used as contact plating ? I truly don't think so.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby MCes » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:03 pm

eslapion wrote:
MCes wrote:1 mm of insertion course on pcb material is important, 4? 5? 6? mm of insertion course on abrasive material ( hard gold finger ) is not important...


Question for TLovskog :
Are we supposed to consider gold as an abrasive material when used as contact plating ? I truly don't think so.


cherry picking:
eslapion is trying to using another argument (from another person) to negate the principle that softest material are scratched by hardest material...

and hard gold is not even smooth!
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby Gyro Gearloose » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:21 pm

I would recommend people not purchase anything from someone as obtuse and combative as MCes. Furthermore, we should not feed the ego of someone who claims "paternity" for how simple computers interface to simple RAM chips.

What a doofus. The knowledge of how to achieve this is so basic and simple it was published over 30 years ago in a variety of magazines and there just isn't that much leeway to do it any other way...

You got an address bus, you got your data and you got your chip select lines. Wow. So complex. Much thinking.

Image

As a teenager I was able to figure this out on my own. There isn't much "IP" there to protect.... :roll:

I would never have thought that in 2018 I'd still be seeing people scratching, sorry, MASKING off part numbers as if this achieves anything. :lol:

Thanks for the entertainment, though. It was too cold to go outside tonight anyway!

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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby MCes » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:32 pm

Gyro Gearloose wrote:I would recommend people not purchase anything from someone as obtuse and combative as MCes. Furthermore, we should not feed the ego of someone who claims "paternity" for how simple computers interface to simple RAM chips.

What a doofus. The knowledge of how to achieve this is so basic and simple it was published over 30 years ago in a variety of magazines and there just isn't that much leeway to do it any other way...

You got an address bus, you got your data and you got your chip select lines. Wow. So complex. Much thinking.


As a teenager I was able to figure this out on my own. There isn't much "IP" there to protect.... :roll:

I would never have thought that in 2018 I'd still be seeing people scratching, sorry, MASKING off part numbers as if this achieves anything. :lol:

Thanks for the entertainment, though. It was too cold to go outside tonight anyway!


this hater has just wrote to me:
Gyro Gearloose wrote:
MCes wrote:
Gyro Gearloose wrote:Did you really scratch off the part numbers???

Really?

:roll:


No, the chips on pics are masked with ink-pen for preserve the paternity of this original project: it isn't been "copy & paste" from other sources like often other people do.
For your curiosity the two chips are a RAM and a PLD.
The input pin of PLD need (min) 2.00V to a sure determination of the "1" logic state....



LOL. You're a schmuck.


and anybody can see who explain own project choice and who spit on other people.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Postby Gyro Gearloose » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:39 pm

No you dummy, I didn't write to you, I wrote AT you publicly. I'll say it again: you're a SCHMUCK.

How do I block users here?


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