HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Modding and Technical Issues

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
eslapion
ultimate expander
Posts: 5458
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:50 pm
Location: Canada
Occupation: 8bit addict

Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by eslapion »

MCes wrote:And you are wrong

it's inside, not below so the note N2 of datas are valid....
"Exposure to Absolute Maximum Ratings conditions for extended periods of time may affect device reliability."
You're playing with semantics. 3.3V is 'inside' AMR and so is 3.8V ... so both would 'affect device reliability' ?

Unless I am a complete lunatic, my understanding of the above, in the case of the XC9536XL is Exposure to Vcc<-0.5V or Vcc>4.0V for extended periods of time may affect device reliability. No such thing on PLAnkton, rest at ease.

Anyways, you can't tell why there is a 74HCT74 on GandALF...
Last edited by eslapion on Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Be normal.
User avatar
MCes
Vic 20 Afficionado
Posts: 457
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:19 am
Location: Italy

Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by MCes »

Eslapion, but are you thinking that people are stupid?
"Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein)
User avatar
eslapion
ultimate expander
Posts: 5458
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:50 pm
Location: Canada
Occupation: 8bit addict

Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by eslapion »

MCes wrote:Eslapion, but are you thinking that people are stupid?
No, but you think I am. :roll:
Be normal.
User avatar
MCes
Vic 20 Afficionado
Posts: 457
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:19 am
Location: Italy

Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by MCes »

I think that you are intellectually dishones, not stupid.
I start from concept that you are not dishonest (not only intellectually), but it seems that I did another mistake.....


http://www.analog.com/en/analog-dialogu ... ue-50.html
"Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein)
norm8332
Vic 20 Nerd
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:04 am
Location: USA

Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by norm8332 »

I'm really not taking any side in this...but reading the specs posted above it does seem that anything over 3.6V is in the AMR range..I don't think .05V will make a difference in longevity though.
“In religion and politics people’s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination... whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”

-Autobiography of Mark Twain
User avatar
eslapion
ultimate expander
Posts: 5458
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:50 pm
Location: Canada
Occupation: 8bit addict

Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by eslapion »

Stresses above those listed under Absolute Maximum Ratings may cause permanent damage to the device.
I put the emphasis on above. PLAnkton does not operate above 4.0V. The safety margin is slightly more than 300mV.

AFAIK, the AMR for the XC9536XL on Vcc is -0.5V to 4.0V and PLAnkton DOES NOT operate ABOVE (or outside) these conditions, unless perhaps if you plug it in the SID socket.
Last edited by eslapion on Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Be normal.
norm8332
Vic 20 Nerd
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:04 am
Location: USA

Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by norm8332 »

I don't really care about this all that much because I think the PLAnkton will be fine, but it also says: "Exposure to absolute maximum rating conditions for extended periods may affect device reliability." I take this to mean anything from 3.61V to 4.0V and after 4.0V you get the magic smoke. Maybe I'm mistaken but that's the way I read it.
“In religion and politics people’s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination... whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”

-Autobiography of Mark Twain
User avatar
eslapion
ultimate expander
Posts: 5458
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:50 pm
Location: Canada
Occupation: 8bit addict

Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by eslapion »

norm8332 wrote:I don't really care about this all that much because I think the PLAnkton will be fine, but it also says: "Exposure to absolute maximum rating conditions for extended periods may affect device reliability." I take this to mean anything from 3.61V to 4.0V and after 4.0V you get the magic smoke. Maybe I'm mistaken but that's the way I read it.
The way I read it is exposure to 4.0V for extended periods may affect device reliability, if you go beyond that, at some point you will eventually get the magic smoke but we obviously can't tell exactly where. As I said before, I did run test up to 4.3V for reliability information reasons.
Be normal.
norm8332
Vic 20 Nerd
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:04 am
Location: USA

Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by norm8332 »

Yeah, that's what one would think, but they don't really define what the 3.61-3.99V range would be considered then.
“In religion and politics people’s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination... whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”

-Autobiography of Mark Twain
User avatar
eslapion
ultimate expander
Posts: 5458
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:50 pm
Location: Canada
Occupation: 8bit addict

Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by eslapion »

norm8332 wrote:Yeah, that's what one would think, but they don't really define what the 3.61-3.99V range would be considered then.
"not recommended" because the interesting effect, considering parasitic capacitances, is to slow down the chip. For a PLA sub, it is actually a useful side effect.
Be normal.
norm8332
Vic 20 Nerd
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:04 am
Location: USA

Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by norm8332 »

Maybe similarly, we could say HASL is "not recommended" but some use it anyways and end these arguments although we differ as to why. Me: because I believe the carts wear out faster, and you because you believe it broke your Cardco expander.
“In religion and politics people’s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination... whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”

-Autobiography of Mark Twain
User avatar
Floopy
Vic 20 Devotee
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:38 pm
Location: US

Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by Floopy »

From what I've been reading I think that norm8332 has the best answer to this, "HASL connectors are not recommended and therefore precautions should be taken when using this device" is a good enough statement.
-Floopy
User avatar
eslapion
ultimate expander
Posts: 5458
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:50 pm
Location: Canada
Occupation: 8bit addict

Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by eslapion »

norm8332 wrote:Maybe similarly, we could say HASL is "not recommended" but some use it anyways and end these arguments although we differ as to why. Me: because I believe the carts wear out faster, and you because you believe it broke your Cardco expander.
Unlike the slightly excessive voltage which has a useful side effect in the case of PLAnkton, there is no useful side effect to using HASL on the edge connector of a board you can insert in a slot. There are only detrimental ones, except perhaps saving money.

Even then, in small batches, there are places which charge exactly the same price for HASL boards vs ENIG boards.
Be normal.
norm8332
Vic 20 Nerd
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:04 am
Location: USA

Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by norm8332 »

You know, on a side note, those Cardco expanders have the sockets exposed and facing upwards. This enables dust, dirt, moisture and anything else in the air or spilled to easily deposit in the connector over the years. Are you positive that this is a good comparison to the sideways mounted, relatively protected socket on the VIC-20?
“In religion and politics people’s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination... whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”

-Autobiography of Mark Twain
User avatar
MCes
Vic 20 Afficionado
Posts: 457
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:19 am
Location: Italy

Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by MCes »

Eslapion must defend a choose of project indefensible, he is trying everything and I, and everybody who had read the treadh, can see if (how much) intellectual dishonesty is present in me and in Eslapion, and it can be readable if/who/how much of this dishonesty is for simple mistaking or simply for protect a business.

The original PLA can be supplied with 5V+-5% so it can be correctly feeded with Vcc from 4.75V to 5.25V, with ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM RATINGS: 5.25V<Vcc<7V.

The chose into "PLAnkton project" are so orientet at the "low price" that it don't match at original PLA specific by the first caratteristics: the supply voltage! (for explicit admission of Eslapion the CPLD are NORMALLY out of own "Recommended Operation Conditions" with Vcc= 5V !!!!)

From the opposite side of analysis I see a lot of sand for eyes, a lot of smoke......

what pity.....
MA.png
"Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein)
Post Reply