HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

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eslapion
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Re: New physical cartridge release: Cheese And Onion

Post by eslapion »

Misfit wrote:Last warning..
Of what ? Selling a cartridge destined to be used with a VIC-20 which doesn't carry the proper type of plating on its edge connector can cause damage to the cartridge port connector.
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beamrider
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Re: New physical cartridge release: Cheese And Onion

Post by beamrider »

It looks to me like the risks are more theoretical than anything!

Maybe new connectors are gold plated but I can't see gold plating on my Vic connector and I'd be far more worried about the Vic chip lasting 36 years [if I were able to live that long] than the cart connector.

Also, cannot the sandpaper operation just be repeated 5 years later if needed and instead of blowing the debris away just use a vacuum cleaner hose to suck away any loose particles.
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Re: New physical cartridge release: Cheese And Onion

Post by Misfit »

eslapion wrote:
Misfit wrote:Last warning..
Of what ? Selling a cartridge destined to be used with a VIC-20 which doesn't carry the proper type of plating on its edge connector can cause damage to the cartridge port connector.
Okay,
I'm tired.
I PROMISE that this was my last VIC-20 release here.
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eslapion
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Re: New physical cartridge release: Cheese And Onion

Post by eslapion »

@Misfit

That's NOT the objective.

Back in 2009, Brian Lyons reacted the same way as you. He checked with other people like Mike and Schema and he realized not using gold plating on the Megacart was a serious problem. He made sure it got the gold plating and considering the quantity he sold, it cost an extra 0.50$ per cart to have it.

I suggest you discuss this with Mike, Schema and Thomas Lovskog. They are very knowledgeable people.

Thomas Lovskog was responsible for providing all the boards I have used on the Behr-Bonz multicart.
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norm8332
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Re: New physical cartridge release: Cheese And Onion

Post by norm8332 »

I'm not taking sides in this, I would just like to state the fact that out of the 17 Vic-20s I have (I know hording :D ) that I refurbished not a single one has a bad cartridge connector and half of them were in very-well-used condition when I got them. Now I can see that the finish may eventually wear off the cart but the connector damage I just haven't seen.

..my 2¢
And if there was an issue, I would think a tooth brush with some Isopropyl alcohol would suffice. Any metal powder would be so fine and small in amount that the odds of shorting '80s tech are astronomical.

One other thing, ENIG is NOT RECOMMENDED for card edges because it is very thin and can scratch off with a small amount of insertions, therefore exposing the copper below..then you really have an oxidation/corrosion problem. So it's not clear that it is even better than HASL. The main reason ENIG is used is because it has a smooth/flat surface that is desired to ease the installation of surface mount components. Hard Gold is the recommend gold finish for edge connectors because it is much thicker.

In the end you have to realize that just like everything we buy, the VIC-20 will not last forever. These were meant to be used and then thrown out. It's built into the design. It will need to be repaired at some point regardless of how well you think you are treating it.

ADMIN: I think this side discussion of PCB coatings should be split from this thread. (mod: done)
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by groepaz »

using sandpaper in any female edge connector will grind off the gold plating in it. Also, if you blow on the stuff you grinded, there is no telling where this conductive material will land, possibly causing all sorts of damage inside your VIC.
you use fine grained sand paper and dont apply a lot of force. this is the standard method to clean corroded contacts since the dawn of time. you can even buy special tools for it (wooden sticks with sandpaper on it) if you like throwing money out the window. before the gold plating is grinded away by this method your grandchildren will have burned that vic20.
It looks to me like the risks are more theoretical than anything!
Also, cannot the sandpaper operation just be repeated 5 years later if needed and instead of blowing the debris away just use a vacuum cleaner hose to suck away any loose particles.
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eslapion
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Re: New physical cartridge release: Cheese And Onion

Post by eslapion »

norm8332 wrote:I'm not taking sides in this, I would just like to state the fact that out of the 17 Vic-20s I have (I know hording :D ) that I refurbished not a single one has a bad cartridge connector and half of them were in very-well-used condition when I got them. Now I can see that the finish may eventually wear off the cart but the connector damage I just haven't seen.
There is a reason for that. When the VIC-20 was a popular machine and cartridges sold in thousand of units, just about all manufacturers used gold plating for the cartridges edge connector. I have seen a few which use something else, such as those from Creative Software (I have 'In the Chips' in my hands right now) but it's not an ordinary solder layer because it doesn't degrade. Might be silver.

Nowadays, the situation is much different. Some people may have very good programming skills and a bit of electronics knowledge and want to make a few 'homebrew' carts having no idea the edge connector has special requirements and you see problematic carts pop up all over the place. This is especially true in the C64 community. There, nowadays, you do see a bunch of people with cart port problems.
..my 2¢
And if there was an issue, I would think a tooth brush with some Isopropyl alcohol would suffice. Any metal powder would be so fine and small in amount that the odds of shorting '80s tech are astronomical.
The trick I got from a few EE back then was white (Staedtler) erasers. The offending material sticks to the eraser so you don't have to remove it. It's a lot better than using sandpaper. Works very well.
groepaz wrote:...you use fine grained sand paper and dont apply a lot of force.
Same as above...
One other thing, ENIG is NOT RECOMMENDED for card edges because it is very thin and can scratch off with a small amount of insertions, therefore exposing the copper below..then you really have an oxidation/corrosion problem. So it's not clear that it is even better than HASL. The main reason ENIG is used is because it has a smooth/flat surface that is desired to ease the installation of surface mount components. Hard Gold is the recommend gold finish for edge connectors because it is much thicker.
AFAIK, ENIG has different thickness or grades. Obviously the thinner grades are not adequate. The 1541 Ultimate and Megacart both use a thick grade of ENIG and it doesn't scratch off.

The Behr-Bonz and Ultimate Expander both carry hard gold plating.
In the end you have to realize that just like everything we buy, the VIC-20 will not last forever. These were meant to be used and then thrown out. It's built into the design. It will need to be repaired at some point regardless of how well you think you are treating it.
Cleaning the keyboard every once in awhile is not so bad, changing the cart port connector is gruesome.

The R644 series of connectors used by Commodore in the VIC-20 is incredibly rugged and was first used in the 70s in various large electromechanical systems. I have seen a few used in elevator systems more than 25 years old. Some of them were used in the Apollo space program so you can bet they have a very high reliability factor.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by joshuadenmark »

Try looking outside, there's actually more serious problems in the world...

If anyone got connector issues from using this cartridge, I will personally repair it, free of charge.

Now, we can't cook more soup on that hen.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by eslapion »

@joshuadenmark
Of course, there are more important problems. But this, this is about the long term effects on machines which are now all more than 30 years old, this is about the very fundamental characteristics of our beloved VIC-20.

This is one issue where there is much more than meets the eye and where there is a lot of myths and misconceptions. The fact a lot of people strongly adhere to them doesn't make them true.

I am very glad mrr19121970 caught up with it first. I think the responsible thing to do is to blow the whistle and tell the truth and uphold the facts. It's too bad some people see it as some sort of personal grudge.
norm8332 wrote:I'm open to research or references on the subject if you have links.
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/q ... or-plating

http://www.epectec.com/articles/pcb-sur ... tages.html
Last edited by eslapion on Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by Mike »

O.K. people - please take a good breath here and calm down.

For the technically interested, I'd like to point to this article: "Surface finish on PCBs and why it matters for reproduction carts" (link).

Gold plated edge connectors are, without doubt, the best choice. The poster in the article points out, though, that a high number of insertions with HASL finish foremostly expose the copper below the tin, which then leads to corrosion on the edge connector fingers.

The conclusion reads:
HASL finish PCBs are absolutely not meant to be used as game cartridges. They do however have their place, especially in unexposed PCBs where mechanical connections to the PCB are not required. But, in every case, always ensure the game cartridges you buy, wherever you buy them, are finished with Hard Gold. At the very minimum, refuse to purchase any game cartridges which do not have a gold-coloured surface finish. If ambiguous, ask the seller what finish the PCB has – an informed seller will know and will be happy to tell you!
So - tfw8b and Misfit would be well advised to take that recommendation to heart, especially with such a high-profile product. No one is free from errors though, and supposedly it's the first time it has been pointed out to the manufactorer, that he shouldn't miss out on this little bit of extra cost. However, eslapion made them aware of this issue in the possibly most undiplomatic way one can think of. As you can read in the original thread, and following the responses of Misfit in this thread here, the cartridge has been made 'out of stock', i.e. for all intents and purposes discontinued!

...

As long as the cartridges have not been assembled, and this probably also depends on the number of PCBs of this first batch, it should be possible to add a hard gold plating on the edge connecter in an after-processing step. That would limit the possible loss.

Misfit, I strongly hope that what you wrote is not the last word in this matter. Your engagement in the VIC-20 community would be sorely missed.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by eslapion »

@Mike
I have seen people use silver solder to convert a 'solder' layer into a plated edge connector. What your opinion on this ?
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by norm8332 »

I agree with the links/comments Mike and eslapion have posted above in the last few posts as to wear and oxidation to the Cartridge itself but the thing that hasn't been described is how this will permanently damage the VIC-20's cartridge connector. If vendors want to save a small amount of money only to have their product wear out prematurely when compared to gold that is one thing and a business decision, but to cause permanent damage is another. I haven't seen the corroborating evidence of permanent damage to the connector that was claimed.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by tokra »

The game looks so great that I really don't care if the cartridge destroys my VIC-20's port connector over time (the likelihood of which seems pretty low at that)!

Misfit, please don't be angered by a single, poorly voiced opinion. eslapion probably means well, but issuing a warning to people not to buy your game is probably the worst way to go about it.... I'm sure every single member on this board is really looking forward to your game.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by eslapion »

norm8332 wrote:I agree with the links/comments Mike and eslapion have posted above in the last few posts as to wear and oxidation to the Cartridge itself but the thing that hasn't been described is how this will permanently damage the VIC-20's cartridge connector. If vendors want to save a small amount of money only to have their product wear out prematurely when compared to gold that is one thing and a business decision, but to cause permanent damage is another. I haven't seen the corroborating evidence of permanent damage to the connector that was claimed.
Good question. I couldn't find an adequate image on Google.

If you insert one or more cartridge in the edge receptacle a few hundred times, the soft HASL layer will 'grind away' from the cart and slowly deposit itself on the receptacle arc shaped contacts. The material which slowly gets deposited on the gold plated arcs isn't designed for this type of mechanical action or dissimilar metals contact without soldering so it oxidizes and accumulates carbon so it becomes less conductive. The gold plating is therefore slowly coated with a much less conductive material until the signals aren't good.

A white eraser will take away this layer of undesirable metal the same as it can take off pencil lead on a piece of paper but I wouldn't really know how to insert the white eraser in such small space. That's why I said I don't really know how to fix the problem other than replacing the connector.

Using sandpaper, even very fine one with little pressure will grind away the ultra thin 10 microinch layer of gold and expose the underlying metal and rust will begin.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by groepaz »

if you are scared of sandpaper and think it will damage your sanity... just use a piece of thick cardboard. takes longer, works the same. no big deal whatsoever. you could even wrap a piece of cotton around it and soak it in IPA. (using a tootbrush like someone else suggested would also work well, however that will probably require to remove the board from the case)
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