Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

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norm8332
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Re: Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

Postby norm8332 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:35 pm

In case you couldn't see the bottom layer here they are separated. The ground plane doesn't show in these images.
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eslapion
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Re: Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

Postby eslapion » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:11 am

@norm8332
I can confirm to you, the 74_00 on this boards acts as a single AND gate and 2 buffers.

The main clue is the 2 pins (5 and 10) which are inputs to 2 NAND gates and connected to the 5V source on the bottom layer. This forces both of these gates to act as simple inverters.
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norm8332
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Re: Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

Postby norm8332 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:56 pm

I'll have to give that a try when I get a chance.

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Re: Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

Postby eslapion » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:05 am

norm8332 wrote:I'll have to give that a try when I get a chance.

If you do, I suggest you use very fast, low voltage drop diodes. I use 1N6263 on the Behr-Bonz, the resistor I use is 2.2kOhms.
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norm8332
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Re: Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

Postby norm8332 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:11 pm

Finished a couple more I wanted to make.
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Floopy
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Re: Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

Postby Floopy » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:02 am

Looking good :D
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eslapion
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Re: Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

Postby eslapion » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:10 am

norm8332 wrote:Finished a couple more I wanted to make.

Would you be interested in selling a few of those 3D printed cases ?
Last edited by eslapion on Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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norm8332
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Re: Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

Postby norm8332 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:14 am

eslapion wrote:
norm8332 wrote:Finished a couple more I wanted to make.

Would be interested in selling a few of those 3D printed cases ?


They could be sold, but I mostly post 3D printed stuff as a promotion of 3D printing. It is a great thing for a person to take up as a hobby. I got hooked in late 2013 and built three printers. One thing you soon realize that while great for the hobbyist, it is not a money making proposition unless you charge insanely high prices. Sure the item may only have $1 worth of plastic, but its the large amount of work involved. For example with the Commodore carts, each takes about an hour of hands on time and over 2 hours to print. Then what you get in the end in no way resembles an injection molded part unless you spend another 1.5-2 hours sanding and painting it (I did this only on the BEHR-BONZ :) ). Only then after up to 3.5 hours of hands on time and over 2 hours printing do you get something comparable. So if one were to charge a very modest $20/hr, the sanded/painted one including consumables would be over $70! And the non finished/flawed one would be above $25. Just for an empty, highly flawed (by injection mold standards) cartridge case! And add another $5 or more for shipping!

That's why I believe 3D printing is great for the Hobbyist only really. After buying a few 3D printed items, you realize you could have just built a printer for the same price.

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Re: Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

Postby eslapion » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:55 am

norm8332 wrote:... One thing you soon realize that while great for the hobbyist, it is not a money making proposition unless you charge insanely high prices. Sure the item may only have $1 worth of plastic, but its the large amount of work involved. For example with the Commodore carts, each takes about an hour of hands on time and over 2 hours to print. Then what you get in the end in no way resembles an injection molded part unless you spend another 1.5-2 hours sanding and painting it (I did this only on the BEHR-BONZ :) ). Only then after up to 3.5 hours of hands on time and over 2 hours printing do you get something comparable. So if one were to charge a very modest $20/hr, the sanded/painted one including consumables would be over $70! And the non finished/flawed one would be above $25. Just for an empty, highly flawed (by injection mold standards) cartridge case! And add another $5 or more for shipping!

That's why I believe 3D printing is great for the Hobbyist only really. After buying a few 3D printed items, you realize you could have just built a printer for the same price.

There are 2 things that come to my mind.

Back in 1991, I worked on Macintosh and Amiga computers doing desktop publishing and I was responsible for operating an Agfa Compugraphic 9400 imagesetter. It was an incredibly slow machine, just like your 3D printer.

Our solution was to offer mostly 24 hours service and charge a high price for 'Rush' 3 hours service which very few people used. When the shop was about to close, we would send all the day's imaging jobs to a printer spooler so the imagesetter would work all evening and night while employees were away. The jobs would then be sent to the developer machine in the morning and be ready before noon.

I assume you have a day job so the equivalent for you would be to get your printer to do its job when you're away at work. If you have 3 printers, then you can have 3 cases ready when you get back home and the amount of time taken is the time to start your computer and click 'PRINT' just before leaving for work.

The other thing that comes to mind is the fact that personally, I would much prefer a 3D printed case I am expected to sand and paint myself because I can then sand it to the level of my preference and I can elect to use special or ultra high grade protective paints you would probably not offer. Conductive nickel paint is an example.
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tokra
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Re: Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

Postby tokra » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:43 am

The Future Was 8 Bit now has freshly made VIC-20-cases for sale:

https://www.thefuturewas8bit.com/index. ... cases.html

I got one of the "Pre-Production" ones which is very nice already, the newer ones are supposed to be even better and 2 GBP cheaper as well. As such personally I see no reason for 3D-printed-cases anymore, unless you want the absolute original form-factor of the Commodore-cartridge-cases.

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Re: Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

Postby norm8332 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:48 am

eslapion,

There is a lot wrong with this sentiment. First, without getting into all the details, leaving your 3D printer running unattended is equivalent to leaving the stove or oven on when not home. Its just not a good practice. Second, these printers are miles away from just being able to just "click print" at the very least it takes bed prep, warm up and monitoring the start of a print for issues and after the print is complete the bed has to be cleaned up and flashing etc removed from the part (separate from sanding).

Then there is the steep learning curve that in many cases can take a year to master because of under developed hardware/software at this point (check google).

This is why they are not selling like hotcakes and in some cases have had an 80% return rate.

I actually have cameras and an ipad app so I can monitor them while home. 99% of the 3d printers sold today have neither the UL or CE listing. Search 3D printer fire on google. I personally have had one power supply fry and one heat bed connector melt-down. The HB draws 17 amps @ 12V, all through a wire thats flapping back and forth thousands of times per print. One of my printers has over 5000 hours on it!

This is why it's still completely in the hobbyist realm and not mainstream. They are definitely not usable for mass production.

Why is it that there is only one person out of all of the people who own them that has has taken up selling to the retro community (COREi64)? I think what I have said in my two last posts explains it.

All that said I have no regrets owning my printers and am very happy to have them. I recommend that you look into getting one. Its a lot of fun being able to draw things on the screen and get a tangible item. They have a lot of household uses too, I have printed many replacement parts over the years for everything you could imagine.
Last edited by norm8332 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:44 am, edited 8 times in total.

eslapion
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Re: Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

Postby eslapion » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:55 am

norm8332 wrote:... in some cases have had an 80% return rate.

That's bad!

I actually have cameras and an ipad app so I can monitor them while home. 99% of the 3d printers sold today have neither the UL or CE listing. Search 3D printer fire on google.

That's REALLY bad!

We've had a couple of nasty surprises every now and then with the CG 9400 and got all the film bundled up in an accordion mess a few mornings but that's the worst we ever got. Never in a million years something like a fire!
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Re: Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

Postby toby405 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:06 pm

Is the idea to solder something like this to the board:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/28-Pin-DIP-Mac ... 25bbd3af56

and then plug the eprom into it,

or just to solder the eprom directly to the board?

I'm thinking to fit it in one of those beautiful cases the eprom needs to burned/tested and soldered right to the board, no?

norm8332
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Re: Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

Postby norm8332 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:10 pm

You can use a socket, but it will require that you shorten the pins on the eprom by about 2mm so it sits flush in the socket. You also have to trim the pins etc. on the solder side of the board. I recommend double wipe sockets. They are cheaper than machined and work fine. I've never tried the ones you linked so I can't tell you if they will work.

I have been just soldering most of them in since the EPROMs are currently less than $1 in a quantity of 10 shipped on eBay. They are refurbished (regardless of what the listing says), but they work. One time I did have to run some through an erase process before they would program. I'm guessing they were X-rayed at one point.

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Re: Cartridge designs released - Eagle PCBs

Postby Floopy » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:55 pm

toby405 wrote: eprom need to burned/tested and soldered right to the board, no?

Ah.., burnt IC's are never any good :wink:
I usually always put sockets because de-soldering is a pain. I use the cheaper flat pin sockets, but I might get criticized for that.
Anyway you still need to figure out how you will program your IC's.
-Floopy


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