HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

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Mike
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by Mike »

O.K. people - please take a good breath here and calm down.

For the technically interested, I'd like to point to this article: "Surface finish on PCBs and why it matters for reproduction carts" (link).

Gold plated edge connectors are, without doubt, the best choice. The poster in the article points out, though, that a high number of insertions with HASL finish foremostly expose the copper below the tin, which then leads to corrosion on the edge connector fingers.

The conclusion reads:
HASL finish PCBs are absolutely not meant to be used as game cartridges. They do however have their place, especially in unexposed PCBs where mechanical connections to the PCB are not required. But, in every case, always ensure the game cartridges you buy, wherever you buy them, are finished with Hard Gold. At the very minimum, refuse to purchase any game cartridges which do not have a gold-coloured surface finish. If ambiguous, ask the seller what finish the PCB has – an informed seller will know and will be happy to tell you!
So - tfw8b and Misfit would be well advised to take that recommendation to heart, especially with such a high-profile product. No one is free from errors though, and supposedly it's the first time it has been pointed out to the manufactorer, that he shouldn't miss out on this little bit of extra cost. However, eslapion made them aware of this issue in the possibly most undiplomatic way one can think of. As you can read in the original thread, and following the responses of Misfit in this thread here, the cartridge has been made 'out of stock', i.e. for all intents and purposes discontinued!

...

As long as the cartridges have not been assembled, and this probably also depends on the number of PCBs of this first batch, it should be possible to add a hard gold plating on the edge connecter in an after-processing step. That would limit the possible loss.

Misfit, I strongly hope that what you wrote is not the last word in this matter. Your engagement in the VIC-20 community would be sorely missed.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by eslapion »

@Mike
I have seen people use silver solder to convert a 'solder' layer into a plated edge connector. What your opinion on this ?
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by norm8332 »

I agree with the links/comments Mike and eslapion have posted above in the last few posts as to wear and oxidation to the Cartridge itself but the thing that hasn't been described is how this will permanently damage the VIC-20's cartridge connector. If vendors want to save a small amount of money only to have their product wear out prematurely when compared to gold that is one thing and a business decision, but to cause permanent damage is another. I haven't seen the corroborating evidence of permanent damage to the connector that was claimed.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by tokra »

The game looks so great that I really don't care if the cartridge destroys my VIC-20's port connector over time (the likelihood of which seems pretty low at that)!

Misfit, please don't be angered by a single, poorly voiced opinion. eslapion probably means well, but issuing a warning to people not to buy your game is probably the worst way to go about it.... I'm sure every single member on this board is really looking forward to your game.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by eslapion »

norm8332 wrote:I agree with the links/comments Mike and eslapion have posted above in the last few posts as to wear and oxidation to the Cartridge itself but the thing that hasn't been described is how this will permanently damage the VIC-20's cartridge connector. If vendors want to save a small amount of money only to have their product wear out prematurely when compared to gold that is one thing and a business decision, but to cause permanent damage is another. I haven't seen the corroborating evidence of permanent damage to the connector that was claimed.
Good question. I couldn't find an adequate image on Google.

If you insert one or more cartridge in the edge receptacle a few hundred times, the soft HASL layer will 'grind away' from the cart and slowly deposit itself on the receptacle arc shaped contacts. The material which slowly gets deposited on the gold plated arcs isn't designed for this type of mechanical action or dissimilar metals contact without soldering so it oxidizes and accumulates carbon so it becomes less conductive. The gold plating is therefore slowly coated with a much less conductive material until the signals aren't good.

A white eraser will take away this layer of undesirable metal the same as it can take off pencil lead on a piece of paper but I wouldn't really know how to insert the white eraser in such small space. That's why I said I don't really know how to fix the problem other than replacing the connector.

Using sandpaper, even very fine one with little pressure will grind away the ultra thin 10 microinch layer of gold and expose the underlying metal and rust will begin.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by groepaz »

if you are scared of sandpaper and think it will damage your sanity... just use a piece of thick cardboard. takes longer, works the same. no big deal whatsoever. you could even wrap a piece of cotton around it and soak it in IPA. (using a tootbrush like someone else suggested would also work well, however that will probably require to remove the board from the case)
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by beamrider »

Haven't tried but I guess spraying the port and a cart with switch cleaner and then inserting a few times would also work..
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by eslapion »

groepaz wrote:if you are scared of sandpaper and think it will damage your sanity... just use a piece of thick cardboard. takes longer, works the same. no big deal whatsoever. you could even wrap a piece of cotton around it and soak it in IPA. (using a tootbrush like someone else suggested would also work well, however that will probably require to remove the board from the case)
It has been pointed out that standard ENIG (2-3 uin) will get damaged by the simple insertion and extraction of the board. The datasheet I previously mentioned indicates the gold plating in all R644 receptacles is 10uin thick so sandpaper is definitely to be avoided.

A piece of cardboard of the right shape is probably a good idea, it will make the removed dissolved dirt absorb inside of it instead of spreading all over. IPA can be isopropyl alcohol or India Pale Ale. The first one is good for cleaning many things, the second one you can drink. Doing the opposite can be unhealthy and mess up your cart port connector... :?

I suppose you could do both with a good vodka.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by groepaz »

Haven't tried but I guess spraying the port and a cart with switch cleaner and then inserting a few times would also work.
those magic cleaner solutions are almost always a bad idea (if used like this) - they will dissolve the oxide perhaps.... but then you will rub and spread it all over the contacts, and when it dries, the situation is possibly worse than before. IF you use stuff like that, ALWAYS use something like IPA afterwards to wash out the residue.

(if someone suggests you to use WD40 for this - dont hesitate with throwing heavy objects =P)
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by eslapion »

groepaz wrote:
Haven't tried but I guess spraying the port and a cart with switch cleaner and then inserting a few times would also work.
those magic cleaner solutions are almost always a bad idea (if used like this) - they will dissolve the oxide perhaps.... but then you will rub and spread it all over the contacts, and when it dries, the situation is possibly worse than before.
Yeah. Some of them contain acetone and I've heard stories of people trying to clean their Zorro II connectors in Amiga 2000 computers with the product catching fire when it came in contact with a leaking clock battery.

Acetone can damage polystyrene and that's what Commodore VIC-20 and C64 keyboards and cases are made with.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by norm8332 »

eslapion wrote:Acetone can damage polystyrene and that's what Commodore VIC-20 and C64 keyboards and cases are made with.
you mean Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS) to be exact :mrgreen:
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by eslapion »

norm8332 wrote:
eslapion wrote:Acetone can damage polystyrene and that's what Commodore VIC-20 and C64 keyboards and cases are made with.
you mean Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS) to be exact :mrgreen:
Not 100% sure about this one but I do believe the VIC-20/C64 cases are : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystyre ... olystyrene

Whereas you refer to : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonit ... ne_styrene

Lego bricks are ABS and they flex considerably more before breaking than VIC/C64 cases. Anyways, my experience with the closing tabs breaking too often and too easily.

My 25 years old IBM PS/2 keyboard is definitely made of metal and ABS. It's as good for typing as it is for discouraging a burglar.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by norm8332 »

Its ABS for sure. It's just a bit brittle because of age degradation. Also it may have a formula that contains less butadiene which is the rubbery compound in ABS that makes it tough. The formula can vary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonit ... ne_styrene If it was pure polystyrene a lot more would be breaking besides the super thin keyboard tabs. Notice that later Commodore fixed their design flaw by using full-width tabs instead of the flimsy dual tabs design.

In my quest to repair several broken cases using parts from 3d printing I previously performed a few tests. First, a burn test http://www.boedeker.com/burntest.htm then a melt test to see if it was ABS as I suspected. ABS is amorphous which means it doesn't melt into a liquid but into a paste up until 400c when it separates. Polystyrene will melt into a liquid. During testing it was noted that the plastic used in the Commodore cases is amorphous. So with the burn test and the melt test it passes for ABS. It also readily accepts ABS glue (ABS dissolved in acetone).
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by eslapion »

@norm8332
I'm not about to burn a C64 case to know for sure (or even a part of it) but it sure feels a lot more like a thicker plastic car model than a lego brick.
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Re: HASL for cartridges? (split/OT from: Cheese & Onion)

Post by mrr19121970 »

I tried grating a bit of C64 and adding acetone to make a paste to repair a hole. It didn't work. The gratings stayed gratings and the acetone went abit yellow.
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