VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

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Tom
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Re: VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

Post by Tom »

orion70 wrote:Again, history is not made with "if", but Tramiel's tactic to obliterate the VIC with an (almost) incompatible big brother was not good for Commodore in the long term. It inaugurated a long list of parallel roads - see the infamous TED series in mid-80s - and prevented gifted programmers from fully exploiting the VIC's potential.
I disagree on the premise that retrofitting dynamic RAM to the Vic would have been difficult — with the VIC interleaving there are no spare cycles for refresh accesses, and the access patterns aren't inherently tailored to achieve refresh by stealth — and that without a shift to dynamic RAM the rest of the market would have been selling 32, 48 and 64 kb computers a lot more cheaply than Commodore. I guess they'd have had to keep the existing static RAM and filled in the rest of the memory map with dynamic, which would have put them at a cost disadvantage both from having static RAM in there at all and just in terms of chip count. Which would have been anathema to Tramiel.

I think the success of the '64 is a greater benefit than the loss of money and opportunity caused by the idea that they could release new incompatible computers frequently as exemplified by the TED series. By the time of the Amiga they seem to have figured out that compatibility is important.

Otherwise, yeah, even without any change in graphics or audio the Vic could have been a competitive computer through the entire 8-bit subject to RAM constraints.

The game video posted, by the way, looks really good.
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orion70
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Re: VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

Post by orion70 »

Tom wrote:I disagree on the premise that retrofitting dynamic RAM to the Vic would have been difficult — with the VIC interleaving there are no spare cycles for refresh accesses, and the access patterns aren't inherently tailored to achieve refresh by stealth — and that without a shift to dynamic RAM the rest of the market would have been selling 32, 48 and 64 kb computers a lot more cheaply than Commodore. I guess they'd have had to keep the existing static RAM and filled in the rest of the memory map with dynamic, which would have put them at a cost disadvantage both from having static RAM in there at all and just in terms of chip count. Which would have been anathema to Tramiel.
I'm not sure I understood your point here :oops:. Are you stating that no increase in RAM size would have been possible without a dramatic increase in the final retail price?
Tom wrote:I think the success of the '64 is a greater benefit than the loss of money and opportunity caused by the idea that they could release new incompatible computers frequently as exemplified by the TED series. By the time of the Amiga they seem to have figured out that compatibility is important.
I tend to disagree on this topic. Amiga was exactly what the VIC, C64, and TED micros were before: incompatible stuff. The 8-bits were incompatible between them, and of course with the heterogeneous competitors (including MSX, which was overtly thought as a standard). Amiga was a pick-up project of Commodore in times when the CBM boss, management, engineers, and staff were completely different, and no real know-how or vision were left to drive the firm in one definite direction. Of course, Amiga was compatible only with itself (500-600-1000), but failed to implement some sort of compatibility with the already established and market-killing IBM PC, MS-DOS world. Brian Bagnall's definition of hardware and software incompatibility as one of the greatest Commodore's "curses" IMO is just perfect. Chuck Peddle himself had a different, more solid vision of what Commodore computers should have been in terms of coherence and hardware specs, and left as soon as 1980.
Tom wrote:Otherwise, yeah, even without any change in graphics or audio the Vic could have been a competitive computer through the entire 8-bit subject to RAM constraints.
Or, if we change perspective, they could have waited a couple of years and sell directly some sort of C64 on steroids, but well, in that case this forum wouldn't exist :)

Sorry for the OT - and back IT: is there an ETA for beta-versions of the game?

EDIT: post #3000 - yoho!
Tom
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Re: VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

Post by Tom »

orion70 wrote:I'm not sure I understood your point here :oops:. Are you stating that no increase in RAM size would have been possible without a dramatic increase in the final retail price?
I think it'd have been uncompetitive on price if they wanted to sell a machine at least as fast as the original Vic-20 while expanding the RAM. I'd be interested to know more exactly how the VIC-II solved the dynamic RAM problem but it clearly has a much more complicated timing relationship as it appears capable of bus mastering?

What might have worked well would be a Vic-20 GS circa 1981? No hardware sprites but otherwise a ColecoVision (from 1983) killer, as it's much more suited to scrolling, the audio is within spitting distance and that doubles down on games on cartridges, solving any RAM issue either way?
orion70 wrote:Sorry for the OT - and back IT: is there an ETA for beta-versions of the game?

EDIT: post #3000 - yoho!
Yes! Same question!
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Misfit
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Re: VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

Post by Misfit »

Tom wrote:
orion70 wrote:Sorry for the OT - and back IT: is there an ETA for beta-versions of the game?

EDIT: post #3000 - yoho!
Yes! Same question!
Beta versions are overrated. You have to wait.
My first (evil and secret) plan was that I could make very limited box version and release digital version later. But I'm lazy..
Tom
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Re: VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

Post by Tom »

Misfit wrote:My first (evil and secret) plan was that I could make very limited box version and release digital version later. But I'm lazy..
Honestly, that's partly why I use GitHub. So that it's a public embarrassment when I don't bother proceeding with something. Which is helpful motivation.

That and the free source code backup, of course.
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Jeff-20
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Re: VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

Post by Jeff-20 »

The game looks great. Should Denial expand to have a Spectrum section? haha there are so many cross-over users here.
High Scores, Links, and Jeff's Basic Games page.
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Misfit
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Re: VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

Post by Misfit »

Small status update:
Enemy / hero sprite handling works now
pentagorat3.gif
pentagorat3.gif (1.43 MiB) Viewed 2716 times
tonyrocks
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Re: VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

Post by tonyrocks »

I still keep thinking this is a Spectrum game. hehe...hard to believe it for sure.
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Re: VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

Post by Kakemoms »

Very nice sprites! The isometric reminds me of Spy vs spy.
tlr
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Re: VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

Post by tlr »

Excellent game! Plays very nicely. ;)
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Misfit
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Re: VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

Post by Misfit »

tlr wrote:Excellent game! Plays very nicely. ;)
status update:
32 screens and new puzzles. Bug fixes and optimizations. Audio needs work, but new version looks great.

Hmm.. It's possible that we can make a physical tape release. But who knows..
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mrr19121970
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Re: VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

Post by mrr19121970 »

Do you have a ETA when we can try?
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Re: VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

Post by joshuadenmark »

Looking good, impressive progress indeed.

I'm on for at future tape release :D
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Misfit
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Re: VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

Post by Misfit »

mrr19121970 wrote:Do you have a ETA when we can try?
When it's ready. :D
I would want to make a tape release first and free digital download later. I don't know how much time we need to create a physical version. But stay tuned..
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Re: VIC-20 Isometric game prototype?

Post by joshuadenmark »

Misfit wrote:
mrr19121970 wrote:Do you have a ETA when we can try?
When it's ready. :D
I would want to make a tape release first and free digital download later. I don't know how much time we need to create a physical version. But stay tuned..
Just ask Pixel :wink:
Kind regards, Peter.
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