Path to Wizard of Wor

Discussion, Reviews & High-scores

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
beamrider
Vic 20 Scientist
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:28 pm
Location: UK

Re: Path to Wizard of Wor

Post by beamrider »

Those Balley sprites are a bit more blocky vertically, so to achieve similar dimensions on the Vic, 3x2 would be needed.

I would discount Vic-SSS as it stands for a few reasons...

- 3x2
- I would want to use the layout above which has a screen size > 512 bytes and this isn't catered for in SSS due to use of bank switching
- no support for multi-color sprite masking, without which you get strange effects when sprites collide, (this is evident in Pooyan).
- I think on this game, to get the performance acceptable, pre-shifted sprites will be needed as the baddies move at a fair rate on later levels. I don't think this is supported in SSS.
- I'd want to have an implementation that is optimised for 4 colours and doesn't waste cycles updating color RAM.

Although, the background is black, you still need to merge with other sprites, bullets and the maze walls?

You could try 'c' but personally, if I were to write this I would revert to assembler. Perhaps you could get away with a hybrid approach though.

I'm not convinced about a shared-source approach (would anyone actually contribute?). I think everyone likes to create their own stuff and get the kudos for it, that's a large part of the motivation. On the other hand, a logical split could be for one person to do the main game, someone else draw all the sprites (which is no trivial task) and another to do sound effects/music.
User avatar
Mike
Herr VC
Posts: 4816
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:57 pm
Location: Munich, Germany
Occupation: electrical engineer

Re: Path to Wizard of Wor

Post by Mike »

beamrider wrote:I think everyone likes to create their own stuff and get the kudos for it, that's a large part of the motivation.
Well, I think orion70 and I had quite a lot of fun doing VICtoria together, and get both the kudos. :)
User avatar
beamrider
Vic 20 Scientist
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:28 pm
Location: UK

Re: Path to Wizard of Wor

Post by beamrider »

tokra wrote:This looks very nice already! I love the idea using 3 char high, 2 char wide sprites as these would due to the pixel-aspect-ratio actually look like square sprites on a PAL-VIC20 and not like your typical VIC-game.

I would probably go for blue for the maze (aux color) to keep the arcade-feeling, red as background and yellow as char color for the whole screen. The arcade only uses these three colors and black as well:
Yes, that does look a better color scheme...

Image

btw, to make this, I added support for horizontal charcater flip that honours multi-color mode in the lastest Vic20-SCD

..and here is the SCD link

http://87.81.155.196/vic20sdd/Vic20SDD. ... %3Fraw%3D1

..and here is a prg that displays it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6tuy9vc3zfsjb ... .prg?raw=1

I've tested it on a real vic/1701 monitor and it just about fits width-wise on PAL. Perhaps someone could try on an NTSC machine? (cursor keys adjust position)

Image
User avatar
orion70
VICtalian
Posts: 4337
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:45 am
Location: Piacenza, Italy
Occupation: Biologist

Re: Path to Wizard of Wor

Post by orion70 »

Current desktop at work:

Image

Wizard of WorK :mrgreen:
User avatar
tokra
Vic 20 Scientist
Posts: 1120
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:32 pm
Location: Scheessel, Germany

Re: Path to Wizard of Wor

Post by tokra »

Nice! Wondering how the player-sprites (and monsters) might look when they walk up an down, since 24 by 8 pixels will look very different compared to 8 by 24. Might be tricky do design.
User avatar
beamrider
Vic 20 Scientist
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:28 pm
Location: UK

Re: Path to Wizard of Wor

Post by beamrider »

tokra wrote:Nice! Wondering how the player-sprites (and monsters) might look when they walk up an down, since 24 by 8 pixels will look very different compared to 8 by 24. Might be tricky do design.
looks ok (I'm no artist) , I had to beef the gun up a bit to be consistent between portrait/landscape

http://87.81.155.196/vic20sdd/Vic20SDD. ... %3Fraw%3D1
User avatar
tokra
Vic 20 Scientist
Posts: 1120
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:32 pm
Location: Scheessel, Germany

Re: Path to Wizard of Wor

Post by tokra »

beamrider wrote:I've tested it on a real vic/1701 monitor and it just about fits width-wise on PAL. Perhaps someone could try on an NTSC machine?
While I didn't specifically test this on an NTSC-machine, there have been tests on how far you can go on NTSC before:

In developing my NTSC-graphic modes I found out:
"On standard setting NTSC is able to display something like 192x216 (that's what my projector is able to display for example). I've checked with my Commodore 1084-monitor on overscan as well. The maximum resolution is 200x232 there"

Relying on the overscan area isn't really practical. PAL-maximum you can trust 208x256 (26x32 chars) to be somehow visible on most devices, while 224x280 is possible with overscan if you can adjust your monitor. For NTSC the maximum usable area seems to be around 192x216 (24x27), as you can see here:

http://www.sleepingelephant.com/ipw-web ... 2&start=73

23x26 (184x208) leaves room at each edge, so you would be able to use 24x27 (192x216) as well.

This also makes sense if you calculate PAL<->NTSC standards. If 256 lines are visible at PAL 256*(525/625) = 215.04, rounded up to 216 lines should be visible with NTSC.
And if 208 rows are visible with PAL 208*(65/71) = 190.42 rows, rounded up to 192 should be visible with NTSC.
(cursor keys adjust position)
A feature like this is really necessary for such resolutions. However it would be really nice if you could also adjust to the left and up. I instinctively wanted to push cursor-left but the picture went right, takes a long time until the picture wraps and comes out on the left again.
User avatar
beamrider
Vic 20 Scientist
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:28 pm
Location: UK

Re: Path to Wizard of Wor

Post by beamrider »

Hmm, so the above 26 character wide design would see the characters outside the maze being cropped on an NTSC display. I was unaware that NTSC had less horizontal real estate.

Use the shift key to move the screen left and up (also in Tank Battalion).
User avatar
tokra
Vic 20 Scientist
Posts: 1120
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:32 pm
Location: Scheessel, Germany

Re: Path to Wizard of Wor

Post by tokra »

tokra wrote:23x26 (184x208) leaves room at each edge, so you would be able to use 24x27 (192x216) as well.
beamrider wrote:So the 26 col. 24 row design above should be fine for both formats then :D
Well, NTSC can only show 24 col but 27 rows. You may use the other way around since you talk of 3x2 sprites, which I would call 2x3 (x first, y last).

But since the information in the leftmost and rightmost columns is not really vital for gameplay this might work as well on NTSC. You would be able to guess there's a tunnel and only the extra-player symbols would be cut off. Maybe you could even recognize NTSC in software and display the extra players differently.
..try using the [left] shift key in the same manner as the normal Vic editor :wink:
Duh, I must be too used to VICE allowing to use all 4 PC cursors keys....

One more thing regarding the maze setup. Is it necessary to have walls on all edges of a 2x3 tile? Difficult to explain, maybe a small picture will help:

Code: Select all

**
**
**
blank tile

==
**
**
Wall on top

|*
|*
|*
Wall on left
Shouldn't it be possible to use just these tiles to create the full maze? This might make it easier to design the sprites so they don't overlap with the walls.

Edit: Hehe, I answered faster than you could edit your post :)
User avatar
Mike
Herr VC
Posts: 4816
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:57 pm
Location: Munich, Germany
Occupation: electrical engineer

Re: Path to Wizard of Wor

Post by Mike »

You'd also need a 2x3 character tile with walls at the top and left:

Code: Select all

+-
|*
|*, * is blank
and also a tile with a single 'pixel' in the top-left to close the bottom-right corners, dangling horizontal edges (at the right) and dangling vertical edges (at the bottom).

That allows for the construction of any labyrinth, which has vertical edges every 8 multicolour pixels (leaving 7 free) and horizontal edges every 24 lines (with - say - 3 pixels thickness, that means a free space of 21 lines).
bills442
Vic 20 Amateur
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Path to Wizard of Wor

Post by bills442 »

I agree that the info on the edges of the screen isn't super important; It certainly wouldn't be a loss if that wrapped off the screen on some configs, the tunnel and the player count can be determined even if cut off. I can test on my NTSC any screens you want pictures of ( should have time to try it tomorrow night )
User avatar
beamrider
Vic 20 Scientist
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:28 pm
Location: UK

Re: Path to Wizard of Wor

Post by beamrider »

I just updated the design based on Mike and Tokra's feedback.

Image


Only 4 characters are used for the Maze now. Btw, it would need 3 additional characters for the bottom and right edges if these were adjacent to the edge of the screen, but luckily this isn't the case. I defined new characters for the score boxes in a similar manner that more closely resemble the original.

edit: Also, modified the player sprite so he doesn't overlap any of the maze walls.
Last edited by beamrider on Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
beamrider
Vic 20 Scientist
Posts: 1447
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:28 pm
Location: UK

Re: Path to Wizard of Wor

Post by beamrider »

Also, increased to 25 lines to mimic arcade layout better at the bottom

Image
Last edited by beamrider on Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
rhurst
Omega Star Commander
Posts: 1369
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:12 pm
Website: https://robert.hurst-ri.us
Location: Providence, RI
Occupation: Tech & Innovation

Re: Path to Wizard of Wor

Post by rhurst »

Nice thread, maybe its time has come. But let me throw a damp towel out there:

First, I am not a fan of the game, Wizard of Wor, and might be a naysayer. I believe it plays best with its option for 2 humans cooperating, if a porting effort to VIC 20 has any chance to meet 30+ years of anticipation it finds here. Even so, it might probably frustrate the users here that want to really play it: on real hardware needing VIC Voder support, but also needing one of those funky joystick adapter configs; and the VICE emulator offers that, but it does not for a Voder option.

Second, I think the Wizard of Wor port was something special to C64, like the GORF port was something special to VIC 20. I'm not convinced enough love can be mustered up to match the work and effort this will take.

Any of this sound familiar, or do I stand alone? :P

That being said, maybe its time has come: given the technical talent, tools, and possibly the energy needed from an impassioned crowd here. I've seen an incredible project in Mega-Cart come to fruition, because of these exact special ingredients found here. Heck, there was so much residual enthusiasm from that project, it got me to write a Berzerk port from a simple demand posted by our leader, Jeff-20.

Perhaps history can be repeated here and Wizard of Wor will be its result. It would certainly make for a noteworthy mark in our VIC 20 community lore. :)
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
https://robert.hurst-ri.us/rob/retrocomputing
User avatar
orion70
VICtalian
Posts: 4337
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:45 am
Location: Piacenza, Italy
Occupation: Biologist

Re: Path to Wizard of Wor

Post by orion70 »

Let me use some italic too... I'm Italian after all :P
rhurst wrote:I believe it plays best with its option for 2 humans cooperating
Yep it would be nice to have a 2UP option, maybe this can be done without "funky joystick adapter configs", simply putting one player on a joystick and the other one on the keyboard? Just guessing...
If not, a one-player only game would be great anyway, given that 30+ years of anticipation :)
rhurst wrote:on real hardware needing VIC Voder support
Well, there could be a VIC Voder option, but then again, the game would be a good game even with no speech...
rhurst wrote:like the GORF port was something special to VIC 20.
...given that the VIC version of GORF itself has no speech at all!
rhurst wrote:I'm not convinced enough love can be mustered up to match the work and effort this will take.
To come to a conclusion, IMVHO I disagree: love and work on this game would match.
rhurst wrote:That being said, maybe its time has come: given the technical talent, tools, and possibly the energy needed from an impassioned crowd here.
...
Perhaps history can be repeated here and Wizard of Wor will be its result. It would certainly make for a noteworthy mark in our VIC 20 community lore. :)
So Robert you're not 100% sure of your own opinion eh? :)
Post Reply