Finished: THEATER OF WAR ww2 strategy game.

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Ghislain
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Post by Ghislain »

orion70 wrote:Excellent gameplay so far.
It would be even a nicer game, if the map was more similar to real world, i.e. with mountains, lakes and forests, instead of single one-character blocks of rocks, water and tree(s) spread all around. This would encourage even more sophisticated tactics, e.g. to avoid a mountain range with your infantry; and the map would be prettier to see :wink: . I hope this is feasible without eating up too much RAM.

I would not allow wrong moves (like trying to move a soldier unit onto a rock) to "eat" the movement. If you try to move a unit where it can't be placed, you still should have all your movements available.

As for difficulty, I think the forces are well balanced, but the step between the levels is too big: IMO, the enemy should have 100 reserve + 10 supply at level 1, then 150 and 15, 200 and 20, and so on. This would encourage people to play "one more time" (I felt lost at the beginning of level 3).

Also, it would be great if one could somehow save the game to play it later (on a real machine, of course). Don't know if maybe a future improved disk version could handle this.

As a final note, I like the hidden fighters/bombers thing, but you should specify that their starting position is random in the instructions.

Thanks again for this little gem :D .
I just uploaded THEATER9.P00 to https://sites.google.com/site/gdbsite5000/main which is a far more well-rounded game. SUPPLY is only added to RESERVE at the end of the turn (so that both sides begin with 100 reserve instead of 110). I made major changes to the BOMBER -- it has different attack strengths depending on the types of ground units it flies over on it's flight path. Please see the changes I made to the instructions on page 1.

Keep in mind that this game is for the unexpanded VIC-20, so all of the changes you propose (less 'randomized' map, save game, preserving moves if the player accidentally makes an illegal one) are not viable in the context of this game (which is going to be submitted to the minigame competition). Of course if I ever make a follow-up for the expanded VIC-20, I have a pretty good game engine to implement these types of things you'd like to see.

As for difficulty, it is expected that the game becomes so difficult that the player must employ a defensive strategy at the beginning of the later levels. I think the furthest I made it to is level 5. I could make the game end after say 10 levels, but I have so few precious bytes left I'm not even sure I could implement something like that.

But thank you for your feedback, it's much appreciated. I'm surprised that I was able to put in as much as I could into the unexpanded VIC-20 so far. A more sophisticated game is certainly feasible with memory expansion.
Last edited by Ghislain on Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ghislain
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Post by Ghislain »

ral-clan wrote:
orion70 wrote:Excellent gameplay so far.
It would be even a nicer game, if the map was more similar to real world, i.e. with mountains, lakes and forests, instead of single one-character blocks of rocks, water and tree(s) spread all around. This would encourage even more sophisticated tactics, e.g. to avoid a mountain range with your infantry; and the map would be prettier to see :wink: . I hope this is feasible without eating up too much RAM.
I agree....it would be neat if forest squares, mountains or water squares would naturally bunch up (with some sort of dispersal algorythm) in order to mimic large forests, mountain ranges or lakes.

I am assuming that different terrain will give different advantes/disadvantages in terms of attack or defense?
Terrain only affects movement. I would have liked to have terrain give defensive bonuses, but I don't even have enough memory for that :P

I imagine that an expanded VIC-20 version could implement the following:

-more "realistic" map instead of the randomized stuff you see
-air units flight path can be controlled by the player
-multiple supply points so the players can deploy into more than a single area
-save game feature, and other features that orion70 mentions

But with more memory expansion, I would probably add quite a few more units. The seven I chose are fairly universal and provide just enough variety to make it interesting.
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Post by orion70 »

Thanks for the quick response, and for the new version. I understand that memory is VERY limited, so there's already a lot of stuff, including a huge variety of game plays, challenge, and strategy - it's a 3K game sooo different from all those zap boom munchy munchy jump jump arcade games (sorry Jeff :P ).

I thought that the code for terrain creation could be modified to add a "if blocks don't cluster then redo random placing" option without wasting too many bytes... Anyway, it's just great as is. :D

What about the difficulty multiplier? Why don't you lower it to 0.5*Level#, so that even less clever players (like me :oops: ) can get past level 3?
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Post by Ghislain »

orion70 wrote:Thanks for the quick response, and for the new version. I understand that memory is VERY limited, so there's already a lot of stuff, including a huge variety of game plays, challenge, and strategy - it's a 3K game sooo different from all those zap boom munchy munchy jump jump arcade games (sorry Jeff :P ).

I thought that the code for terrain creation could be modified to add a "if blocks don't cluster then redo random placing" option without wasting too many bytes... Anyway, it's just great as is. :D

What about the difficulty multiplier? Why don't you lower it to 0.5*Level#, so that even less clever players (like me :oops: ) can get past level 3?
Well, I suck at making arcade style games, so strategy type games are my forte :)

I modified the routine to store map information into 37888-38399 memory (lower 4 bits). This works well and good in VICE, but I want to test this on the real machine. This will make it much easier to write and read this information than doing it by separating upper and lower nibbles in the cassette buffer. I think I should be able to save quite a bit of memory to add some more features.

After this, I'll see if I can make the terrain a little bit more clustered.

I'm thinking of making resource allocation as follows:

HUMAN RESERVES=100 + HUMAN SCORE
HUMAN SUPPLY=9 + LEVEL (so 10 at level 1, 11 at level 2, etc).
CPU RESERVES=100 * LEVEL
CPU SUPPLY=10 + CPU SCORE

So, if you keep your losses at a minimum, you can slow down the computer's supply progress at later levels. I'll playtest this later today.

The reason why the computer is given so much more resources is that it's AI is fairly weak. Yes, eventually the human player gets overwhelmed but there is a scoring system to see how far he can get and how many units he can destroy. I even keep track of the computer's score so that the player can know how he is doing in comparison.
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Post by Ghislain »

Another update:

https://sites.google.com/site/gdbsite5000/main (theater14.p00)

changes I made today:

-if you finish level 10, you win the game!
-fighters have NORMAL attack vs fighters, STRONG attack vs bombers
-when the map is created, rough terrain is cleared from around the flags/bases (makes for faster gameplay)
-the computer will limit itself to a maximum having no more than 1 fighter more than the human player, and no more than 2 bombers than the human player. This will avoid scenarios where the computer over-deploys aircraft.

I did experiment a bit with creating a clustered map but I didn't like the results, so I decided to stick with what I have and instead use memory resources for other features (above)

I did test with changing the way level difficulty goes up but I decided to revert back to what I had before. While I think beating level 10 will be very very tough, it should be considered an amazing accomplishment it happens.
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Post by orion70 »

Ghislain wrote:-if you finish level 10, you win the game!
GREAT! I like games with a goal :D .
Ghislain wrote:-the computer will limit itself to a maximum having no more than 1 fighter more than the human player, and no more than 2 bombers than the human player. This will avoid scenarios where the computer over-deploys aircraft.
...and will for sure make the difficulty curve less steep.
Ghislain wrote:I did experiment a bit with creating a clustered map but I didn't like the results, so I decided to stick with what I have and instead use memory resources for other features (above)
Not a problem at all. As I mentioned before, it would have been a nice feature if it didn't cost too much :wink: .
Ghislain wrote:I did test with changing the way level difficulty goes up but I decided to revert back to what I had before. While I think beating level 10 will be very very tough, it should be considered an amazing accomplishment it happens.
Whoever wins will be the King of strategy!

Today I had fun with the game graphics, trying to imagine how the terrain representation would affect the look of the game. IMHO, it would be nicer to see a map in which terrain symbols are made with "lighter" graphics, leaving "heavy" characters to the army units. An example below (only a fake, just to make clear what I mean). Take it as a suggestion, and of course an absolutely personal view.
NOTE: the symbol for the German Army in WWII was the Iron Cross, and particularly in the Wehrmacht it was the Balkenkreuz, as shown in my fake screen.

BEFORE
Image

AFTER
Image
Last edited by orion70 on Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ghislain
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Post by Ghislain »

orion70 wrote:
Ghislain wrote:-if you finish level 10, you win the game!
GREAT! I like games with a goal :D .
Ghislain wrote:I did test with changing the way level difficulty goes up but I decided to revert back to what I had before. While I think beating level 10 will be very very tough, it should be considered an amazing accomplishment it happens.
Whoever wins will be the King of strategy!
Though said goal might be the holy grail of strategy. Today, I did some playtesting, and I got as far as level 4:

Image

A heroic stand for sure, but I took way too many losses than I should have at level 4 (while escaping relatively unscathed from the first 3 levels).

The screen is orange because when the game ends, the screen cycles through several different screen colors (kind of like an old-school Atari 2600 game).
Today I had fun with the game graphics, trying to imagine how the terrain representation would affect the look of the game. IMHO, it would be nicer to see a map in which terrain symbols are made with "lighter" graphics, leaving "heavy" characters to the army units. An example below (only a fake, just to make clear what I mean). Take it as a suggestion, and of course an absolutely personal view.
NOTE: the symbol for the German Army in WWII was the Iron Cross, and particularly in the Wehrmacht it was the Balkenkreuz, as shown in my fake screen.

AFTER
Image
I really like your suggestions, and I will consider using them. I will definitely use your suggestion for the Iron Cross which I think is very excellent and quite apt. I'd rather avoid any resemblances to that other infamous symbol, if you know what I mean. I had tried to come up with different iron crosses, but they were unsatisfactory. While I like my "blocky" terrain, I will test out your terrain graphics and see how they work out. Thank you very much for your suggestions!

If you're able to, please post the data codes for these graphics so I can quickly apply them to the game.
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Post by orion70 »

Ghislain wrote:I will definitely use your suggestion for the Iron Cross which I think is very excellent and quite apt. I'd rather avoid any resemblances to that other infamous symbol, if you know what I mean.
That's why adventure and strategy games use the Iron Cross both in war flags (which is correct) and in III Reich flags (which is historically inaccurate). A modified version of the Cross is still used by the Bundeswehr.
Ghislain wrote:If you're able to, please post the data codes for these graphics so I can quickly apply them to the game.
Of course!

GERMAN CROSS
219,219,24,255,255,24,219,219

ROCKS
16,56,76,134,19,57,76,134

WATER
192,51,12,0,0,51,204,0

TREE
16,16,40,40,68,68,124,16
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Post by Ghislain »

orion70 wrote:
Ghislain wrote:If you're able to, please post the data codes for these graphics so I can quickly apply them to the game.
Of course!

GERMAN CROSS
219,219,24,255,255,24,219,219

ROCKS
16,56,76,134,19,57,76,134

WATER
192,51,12,0,0,51,204,0

TREE
16,16,40,40,68,68,124,16
I uploaded THTRLTGR.P00 on the download site with your version of the graphics.

I think ultimately, I'll probably go with my "blocky" terrain graphics while using your Iron Cross. I hope that's OK. I doubt that I'll be making any more changes other than bug fixes from here on out.
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Post by orion70 »

Thanks! Will download it ASAP (I'm at work now).
Hey, this thread is more like a chat than a forum discussion :P .
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Post by Ghislain »

orion70 wrote:Thanks! Will download it ASAP (I'm at work now).
Hey, this thread is more like a chat than a forum discussion :P .
It's all good though. After about a week of starting this game, I thought that it wouldn't work out so well, but I became pleasantly surprised with my results.

I also uploaded THEATR15.P00 which has your iron cross graphic + my "blocky graphics".

I updated the instructions I typed up on page 1, which will ultimately become the instructions that will be bundled with the game once it's submitted to the minigame competition.

I figure that the appropriate timeline for this game is 1943 where the Wehrmacht tries to secure their position after Stalingrad, and then once that is established, go for a final desperate push towards Moscow (if you beat level 10, you capture Moscow). With a bit of luck and savvy, I think it is a winnable game. Once the enemy's air superiority is reduced, you can deploy infantry and take out the anti-tank guns which will probably be littered near the enemy's flag.

It's also possible to win by simply outmaneuvering the enemy and just capture the flag (especially if things are going badly). But in the long run, this is a shortcut because the player will have a major incentive to take out enemy units in order to increase the score. The higher your score, the more bonus reserves you receive at the next level.
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Post by Ghislain »

I just spent about 2 hours playing a single game. I was in a tough slog on level 5.

I think that level 5 should be the final one now. Perhaps there may be some games that might be easy because of it, but I don't want people to grow too frustrated. Besides, there is a scoring system so people can set goals for themselves while they play (try to score the most points, suffer the least number of losses, etc).

I also changed the number of supply points to 12 for each side at level 1. This way, supply progression for the human play goes from 12, 15, 18, 21 and finally 24 at level 5 (nice numbers divisible by 3). Computer player will go from 12, 24, 36, 48 and 60.

As well, I realized that it's possible for the game to end in a stalemate: say you destroy the enemy's last ground unit, but he still has a bomber and both your supply scores are zero. The game will just see a bomber plane flying over and over again on the screen. So the minimum amount of supply both players can have is a 1. This way, if a stalemate situation occurs, it's possible to get enough reserves to build a ground unit and then try to win.

The latest beta (hopefully the last one) is here:

https://sites.google.com/site/gdbsite5000/main (THEATR16.P00)
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Post by orion70 »

Great job Ghislain, I downloaded both the new version and the old one with "light" graphics (BTW, would it be possible to have this version updated with the latest modifications too? :mrgreen: ).

I was suspecting that Level 10 as the final goal was beyond human possibilities, so I'm happy you halved the run :D .
As for stalemate, a good alternative would have been to just repeat the level, but the solution with min supply at 1 is OK.

Thanks again!
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Post by orion70 »

Another small suggestion - I know it's late, but if you could implement this it would make the game controls easier: why don't you use "directional keys" instead of numbers to deploy units?
E.g. you could use

Code: Select all

QWE
A D
ZXC
for the 8 directions, instead of numbers 1-8...
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Ghislain
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Post by Ghislain »

orion70 wrote:Another small suggestion - I know it's late, but if you could implement this it would make the game controls easier: why don't you use "directional keys" instead of numbers to deploy units?
E.g. you could use

Code: Select all

QWE
A D
ZXC
for the 8 directions, instead of numbers 1-8...
This is something I would have loved to have, but because keys 1-8 are sequential, it saves a lot of memory doing it that way instead of mapping 8 other keys to assign them each a directional value.

As for your alternative map graphics, I will put those in once the 'final version' of the game is put out.
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