What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

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Mike
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Re: What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

Post by Mike »

This is something I don't quite understand:
ral-clan wrote:It would also have been nice if there had been a 40 column mode.
tonyrocks wrote:Only wish it had 40 columns :)
The standard screen size of 22 columns by 23 rows is one thing. But the VIC-I is flexible enough to provide a 40 column text mode hosted in a bitmap, with fairly readable characters. This display option is available either as full-fledged screen editor with support for BASIC I/O with tools like FAT-40, Super-Screen or PET Emulator. Or - undeniably faster, but more suited as programming API - with a library like it's used in MG Browse, two instances of the Bible Series or several instruction texts included with the disk images of my programs. Or in VIN (the file browser, and GUI tool written by Kananga), etc.

Here's an example (a quote from an interview in Commodore Free #38), where the text explicitly refers to a soft 40-column text mode:

Image

If for some reason these means of putting 40 text columns to display are thought of not being acceptable, fine. Commodore *did* something about that. With the VIC-II in the C64, which was on the market just one year later.

OTOH, the tools I mentioned already had been available at that time, or in case of the MG text library have also been around for quite some time now. Yet people still complain about (IMO only so perceived) deficiencies of the VIC-I as if they were rather ignorant about what actually is possible with the video hardware. :(

The VIC-20 *is* the VIC-I. With a 6502 CPU, some RAM and ROM, and I/O chips (and some TTL glue logic) arranged around it.
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Re: What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

Post by highinfidelity »

I don't remember a 40-column mode being mentioned everywhere in the VIC-20 user's manual. That's a feature that I learned of over the internet, 20+ years after "those days", and however I wouldn't know how to activate it even now. In any case, I suppose it's not a built-in mode that you activate in a easy way by pressing a function key, or CTRL "plus something", correct?

So I think it's a bit stretching reality to pretend that everybody knew or know about it, isn't it?
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Re: What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

Post by tonyrocks »

You must understand that tony was only 11 at the time of acquiring his Vic-20. My limited knowledge of its capabilities only came from one magazine, in fact the only one available where i live, Compute's Gazette. I didn't realize this ability until later, when I saw the idea in Computes Gazette called Screen-80 for the c-64:

Image

So, my complaints were from the time when I was in full-swing of immersion with my Vic-20 :)


Mike wrote:This is something I don't quite understand:
ral-clan wrote:It would also have been nice if there had been a 40 column mode.
tonyrocks wrote:Only wish it had 40 columns :)
The standard screen size of 22 columns by 23 rows is one thing. But the VIC-I is flexible enough to provide a 40 column text mode hosted in a bitmap, with fairly readable characters. This display option is available either as full-fledged screen editor with support for BASIC I/O with tools like FAT-40, Super-Screen or PET Emulator. Or - undeniably faster, but more suited as programming API - with a library like it's used in MG Browse, two instances of the Bible Series or several instruction texts included with the disk images of my programs. Or in VIN (the file browser, and GUI tool written by Kananga), etc.

Here's an example (a quote from an interview in Commodore Free #38), where the text explicitly refers to a soft 40-column text mode:

Image

If for some reason these means of putting 40 text columns to display are thought of not being acceptable, fine. Commodore *did* something about that. With the VIC-II in the C64, which was on the market just one year later.

OTOH, the tools I mentioned already had been available at that time, or in case of the MG text library have also been around for quite some time now. Yet people still complain about (IMO only so perceived) deficiencies of the VIC-I as if they were rather ignorant about what actually is possible with the video hardware. :(

The VIC-20 *is* the VIC-I. With a 6502 CPU, some RAM and ROM, and I/O chips (and some TTL glue logic) arranged around it.
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Mike
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Re: What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

Post by Mike »

highinfidelity wrote:I don't remember a 40-column mode being mentioned everywhere in the VIC-20 user's manual.
Not everywhere in the manual and not at all, of course...
That's a feature that I learned of over the internet, 20+ years after "those days", and however I wouldn't know how to activate it even now.
... that's because we're not talking about some magic register bit one would flip in the VIC-I. Rather, there are some tools or set of routines out there, which program the VIC-I in a certain way, set up some relevant data structures in memory and provide functionality to provide that 40 column text mode in software. It looks exactly as in the example in my preceding post.
In any case, I suppose it's not a built-in mode that you activate in a easy way by pressing a function key, or CTRL "plus something", correct?
Sure. But likewise I didn't want to convey it was as simple as switching on a C64 and working with the 40 columns there out of the box. You need to put a little more work into it (in case of the soft-40 BASIC editor replacements like FAT-40, etc.) or slightly more work (in case you want it a lot faster, with my text library).
So I think it's a bit stretching reality to pretend that everybody knew or know about it, isn't it?
Well, I assume FAT-40 and the like were advertised in contemporary magazines alongside the hardware 40/80-column cartridges, as cheaper variant of doing things. The VTE-40 cartridge, for example, also used such a soft-40 column mode.

tonyrocks may not have been around here in Denial for a longer time, but ral-clan surely is. Over the years, you'll find quite a lot of examples, where the software based 40 column modes have been used with success, by various people. When I see remarks along those I quoted, I always get the impression, that people simply forget what has been found out and developed for the VIC-20 in the 10+ years Denial has been online now - instead referring to outdated or even false information. Or just go by what is written in the data sheets.

Here are some examples of 40 column applications/games on the VIC-20:

* Island of Secrets adventure (using FAT-40),

* Green on Black game compilation (some more games in PET style, also using FAT-40),

* MINIPAINT (not exactly 40 columns, but utilising a 4x8 pixel font with my own new routines),

* Bible Series, Gospels and Pentateuch (same font now with 40 columns by 24 rows hosted in a 160x192 bitmap),

* MG Browse - that set of routines responsible for above feat,

* VIN - a Vic GUI written by Kananga, which also uses this font,

* MG Text Edit (lets you type in text into a MINIGRAFIK bitmap),

* MAXIGRAFIK, the 21 Unexpanded Games Collection, Mah Jongg, MINISKETCH (in game/tool-use, and with an instruction text file included along on the disk-image),

* Athanor (by majikeyric 'inspired' by my routines ;))

... any more?
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Mike
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Re: What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

Post by Mike »

tonyrocks wrote:You must understand that tony was only 11 at the time of acquiring his Vic-20.
Me too. :mrgreen:

But now is now. :)
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Re: What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

Post by majikeyric »

Mike wrote: Athanor (by majikeyric 'inspired' by my routines ;))
That's true ! Thanks Mike :D
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Re: What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

Post by tonyrocks »

Mike wrote:
tonyrocks wrote:You must understand that tony was only 11 at the time of acquiring his Vic-20.
Me too. :mrgreen:

But now is now. :)
Man, we are getting old!!! My wife is going to have to trade me in for a younger, newer model! hehe.

Thanks for all of the links of 40 col examples for Vic. Yes, I wish I had been a part of the Denail forum longer...I feel like I've missed soo much!
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Re: What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

Post by Boray »

Im not sure why people wish that the vic20 had 40 columns. That is however easily fixed, it's just to use a c64 instead. Fixes the problem with screen memory moving when using 8k+ ram as well as i'ts already fully expanded. Using a c64 will give you access to a lot more games and a lot more advanced games as well. But... it's not a vic-20. And a Vic-20 with 40 column display would not really be a vic20, would it?
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Re: What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

Post by ral-clan »

I actually love the 22-column mode (it's cute) and as a kid I didn't even realize it was different than other computers.
However, in retrospect, if the VIC had been able to flip over to a 40-column mode it would have gotten a lot more respect and been on the market longer.

The Apple II and PET were considered "serious" business computers that people didn't dismiss like some did with the VIC (as a "toy" computer)....but really, what was different or more capable about those computers than the VIC-20, if the VIC had had the same 40 columns as them? Okay, the RAM, but that was an easy upgrade and the VIC still would have been much cheaper.

Really, if the VIC had had a 40 column mode it would have wiped the floor with the Apple II and even the PET....it would have in essence BEEN a colour PET, more capable (sound, bitmaps) at a lower price point....and there would have been no reason to look at the APPLE II (okay, maybe if you needed expansion slots).

So while I didn't need 40 columns on the VIC-20 myself in the early 1980s, I would've liked to have seen the VIC get the respect that 40 columns would have given it.

I'll agree with Mike - the software 40 columns on the VIC is quite readable. I've recently gotten a wifi modem for my VIC, and I now think that Commodore's VICTERM-40 (40 column software terminal) is one of the best terminals available for the VIC-20.

Oh, and switching the topic to the VIC's colour pallette. I do like its colours, but as an artist, the lack of a brown and grey always is a bit tricky. Hard to draw tree-trunks and armour or stone for those medieval games. Red and black or light blue can be used in a pinch.
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Re: What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

Post by Boray »

If the Vic-20 had 40 column graphics and some more ram, then the C64 would probably not have been developed (at least not that fast) and Commodore would probably not had been the success story it was.
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Re: What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

Post by eslapion »

What I love about the VIC-20 is how simple it is to program to do small electronics stuff. I would never have been able to learn so much about electronics as a teen with a more complex machine that would have "fenced me out". Only 10 years later, when the Amiga was the popular machine for computer geeks, I felt it was already way too complicated for the average teen to use it to learn electronics, everyone was going for programming and 3D software stuff.

What I hate about it is a consequence of what I love about it; not enough speed, not enough RAM, even when you have a 32k expansion. There's a bunch of small hardware projects I'd like to do which would prove to be monster projects if done on a PC but the VIC doesn't pack enough punch to make them a reality.
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Re: What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

Post by Bobbi »

I have been thinking about a small single board computer (Raspberry Pi or similar) constructed as a VIC-20 cartridge or even a User Port cartridge with RS232 terminal connection. That way you could do the electronic tinkering on the VIC-20 but be able to offload the processing to the ARM on the Pi. The limitation would be still small memory on the VIC-20 side and slow bandwidth between the two (especially if we use RS232!) Still I like the idea of the VIC as a front end computer to something more powerful (or something homebuilt.)
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Re: What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

Post by eslapion »

Bobbi wrote:I have been thinking about a small single board computer (Raspberry Pi or similar) constructed as a VIC-20 cartridge or even a User Port cartridge with RS232 terminal connection. That way you could do the electronic tinkering on the VIC-20 but be able to offload the processing to the ARM on the Pi. The limitation would be still small memory on the VIC-20 side and slow bandwidth between the two (especially if we use RS232!) Still I like the idea of the VIC as a front end computer to something more powerful (or something homebuilt.)
I had a different view on this.

There are nowadays 6502 CPUs which can run up to 14 MHz (officially) and probably more like 20MHz if overclocked. If you completely remove the VIC-I and replace it a simple logic IC which generates the clock signal then you're left with a VIC-20 that works but has no display - just replace RAM, ROM and glue logic with faster modern equivalents. You can then implement an accelerated version of the 80/40 column Data-20 display adapter.

What really sets the speed of the VIC-20 is the VIC-I because of the way it has to access the RAM and character generator to produce the video signal. If there is no VIC-I then the speed limit is much higher.

The Protecto80/Data-20 display adapter is made of a 6545 CRTC chip and a bunch of well know glue logic. It has its own clock for the display so it runs async from the VIC-20.
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Re: What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

Post by Bobbi »

Hmmm that is a neat idea. Never thought of doing that!

Is a VIC-20 with no VIC-1 still a VIC-20 though? ;)
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Re: What do you love or hate about the VIC-20?

Post by Mike »

Bobbi wrote:Is a VIC-20 with no VIC-1 still a VIC-20 though? ;)
To cite eslapion, if you completely remove the VIC-I - it is not a VIC-20 anymore.

This can be argumented for with two observations: first - the VIC-20 is the only micro that has been built with the VIC-I as video chip. There exist some other appliances - notably at least one arcade cabinet with a, IIRC, space invaders clone; and it was also intended for use in medical equipment. It's quite possible those other uses went by a different bond-out option. Second - all the programs/games/tools you see around here won't anymore work on that remnant of a VIC-20. The rest of eslapion's statements, namely also replacing the CPU, RAM, ROM, I/O, glue logic for faster components - to keep what? The mainboard? Really? - can only be dismissed as badly made hyperbole. Even a PC running VICE with xvic is more of a VIC-20 than taking the original hardware and going down that path.

OTOH, if you offload CPU power into an external cartridge (regardless whether cartridge port or user port) you quickly reach the point where the VIC-20 is reduced to a rather poor graphic terminal. Or, put the other way round, what reason would you have to use just the VIC-20 as I/O for the big moby? - could also be a C64, a ZX Spectrum, an Apple II or what else. We had this situation laid on in one case where a Denial member claimed it was a VIC-20 he enabled for Twitter. Actually, it was a PC that did the heavy lifting, all that was running on the VIC-20 was a specialised terminal program, VIC-20 and PC were connected over RS232, and the Twitter client was running on the PC ...pffft.

One application I would really find interesting was access of a SD card not over IEC but directly, in a RAM-link like approach. You'd have a controller on the cartridge, which accesses files or disk images on the SD card, but instead of using the standard IEC routines for transfer it would provide dynamically generated transfer routines (something like CPU emulated DMA) in the I/O 2 or I/O 3 address ranges to pump the data between SD card and VIC-20 RAM. That would allow for data transfer rates in excess of 100 KB/s! This application was hinted at during the first phase of GCart 2011 development, sadly that project did not take off ground. :(

I think it would be a nice feat to do video streaming from a SD card with suchalike cartridge to an otherwise unchanged, stock VIC-20. :wink:
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