VIC 20 Reloaded Motherboard ?

[thecollector]

I was one of the lucky email-auction winners for the new C64 reloaded (complete) motherboards being tested and released this month.

You may already know about this new motherboard, it is a replacement motherboard for the Commodore 64, complete with CPU, graphic and sound chips from the original C64, but with the modulator removed and replaced with a dedicated SVIDEO port and 3.5mm Audio out jack for sound. Motherboard can be modified to be PAL or NTSC depending on what is required. Chips can be socketed using industry standard ZIF sockets, for chips to be easily replaced, i.e. it is possible to use the original 6581 SID chip rather than 8580 SID, by replacing the chip and setting the appropriate jumper for voltage.

Being a collector of all things Commodore I would much rather use the original hardware and software, rather than emulators etc. However, having said that, one of the things that was starting to bother me is that the hardware we are using is getting older and harder to maintain, so this development was very welcome. It is 100% compatible with C64 software and most expansions should work, but some may experience issues.

An advantage also is that the PSU required for it is a standard 12V DC 1A power supply, cheap and easy to buy, therefore the old brick PSU or expensive alternatives are no longer required. It also means less power consumption than the original machine!

The picture quality will be better than the original machine and also means a standard SVIDEO cable can be used for output to a TV/LCD/Plasma screen or perhaps an AMP and then to HDMI (upscaled).

It occurred to me, that it would be a neat idea to have something similar for the VIC 20.

I have recently discussed this with Jens Schoenfeld owner of Individual Computers (icomp.de) and developer of the C64 reloaded motherboard, including a number of other retro products.

Jens is open to the development of a VIC 20 reloaded motherboard providing sufficient interest is shown to make it worthwhile and therefore commercially viable.

Just wondering what interest there would be in this and any thoughts from other Denial members would be very welcome, please post here, to show your interest or perhaps pose some questions or discuss further.

The C64 reloaded motherboard without some of the original chips (i.e. you would need to supply chips from the original C64), is selling for around 160 Euros, just to give you an idea of the potential cost for a VIC 20 reloaded, obviously this is only an assumption, it may be less or higher, but just something to bear in mind, if you were interested.

Jens will check this thread at a later date and review the postings.

Personally I love the idea! But I know we all have very different opinions on these sort of things!

Please check out the following link for more info:
Wiki C64 Reloaded - http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/C64_reloaded

[orion70]

Simply put, this would be (and already is, for c64 reloaded) a great idea. There is someone producing real breadbins, only with better video and no PSU issues! So, what's the minus? Price, of course. For nearly one fifth of the reloaded stuff, you get the original beast, with its sloppy video and the infamous brick, but who cares when you can have another one for 40-50 euros?
IMHO, there are still too many working VICs (not to mention c64s) out there to convince people to pay so much for a refined replica. I hope the guys from Individual Computers can prove me wrong, and start a massive production of y2k VICs .

[thecollector]

C64 reloaded's release also happens to coincide with the kickstarter project for new C64 cases recently completed (as you mentioned above), so the new motherboard will also have a new case, also another project is running on Indiegogo which is for manufacturing new C64/VIC keys for the existing keyboard!

I can certainly see that the price point even of the C64 reloaded may be an issue, but the way I see it is that a number of VIC and C64 collectors pay huge amounts for collecting cartridge games for example and other retro items, so really this would be a small price to pay in comparison to that, for essentially a brand new VIC with some neat advantages.

Obviously the one big advantage the C64 has is that it had a massive installed userbase and also it still has a sizeable active userbase even today compared to other retro computers.

New C64 Cases
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/16 ... in-new-coo
New C64/VIC keys!
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/bran ... x/10500637

[akator]

I love the idea of this project, however S-Video is what kills it for me. However, I would seriously consider paying that price for a modernized VIC motherboard with HDMI.

[R'zo]

Love the idea, the price doesn't bother me. The psu sells me more than any thing with the psu being the vics greatest weakness. I prefer all the original parts but at the end of the day if it functions, plays and programs the same lack of original parts is a reasonable sacrifice.
Emulation is nice but not the same as the real thing. I am excited by even the thought of this.
My primary use for my vic is music so the most important thing to me would be the accuracy of the sound.
Needless to say I am very very interested.

[thecollector]

The graphics and sound will be perfect just like the original - as it would use the original chips, so no worries there.

I agree the PSU is a really nice advantage, especially as the 12V DC power supply are so small in size and easy to find.

[alterus]

I'd also be interested in a Vic 20 Reloaded board. I backed the kickstarter campaign for new c64 cases. I am considering converting the white case into a Vic 20 case by expanding the cartridge slot. A nice new white case with a new Vic 20 board would be sweet!

[thecollector]

Regarding the new white C64 case from that Kickstarter campaign. I primarily wanted the transparent cases, but to get them you had to order a colour one, so I went for the white one as well. I never thought of using it as a VIC 20 case with some suitable modifications for the cartridge port etc. What a cool idea! especially if a VIC 20 reloaded board ever happened.

[orion70]

Technically speaking, I'm in the group of enthusiasts here, but really can't understand why one should pay over 300 Euros for a replica of MB + case (difficult to modify properly), when you can have a boxed working original VIC with manuals and everything, and a brand new PSU (Ray Carlsen's) for less money. OK, there's better video quality and the compatibility with a universal PSU, but what the heck, the Commodore 16 already has these features, but it doesn't attract me at all .

[R'zo]

Technically speaking, I'm in the group of enthusiasts here, but really can't understand why one should pay over 300 Euros for a replica of MB + case .

Instead of dropping the money ona new case you could buy a broken vic for less than $20 and use this to replace a bad mb. That is tha way I would go with this anyway.

[tokra]

Would I welcome a new VIC-20 motherboard? Sure. However I don't think demand would be strong enough right now. This might change once working devices become more rare. However there seems to be strong interest for the C64 Reloaded board, but then the C64 sold 12-17 million while the VIC-20 sold about 2.5 million total.

Anyway, presuming the project would go forward, there are some parameters a little different from the C64-board:

Video-Out: The VIC-20 originally only provides a very poor composite video out, while the C64 has sort of S-Video on board. Jens threw out the HF-modulator and used the space in the casing for a true S-Video port on the C64 Reloaded. I think the S-Video modification is a must for every VIC-20 user today. It just looks so much better than the truly awful composite. Since the VIC-6560 (or VIC-6561) provides Chroma/Luma the modification is pretty easy. However the case offers no extra hole for an S-Video out and the existing modification just uses an extra-pin of the 5-pin-out connector, so you have to hack together your own S-Video cable from there. If the "Reloaded"-mainboard is to be a plug-in replacement for a defective board, it should at least provide S-Video out and the accompanying S-Video cable upon shipment. I would have no interest of having to mod a brand-new board just to get S-Video.

Regarding HDMI-outI have to disagree. This would kill the interlace-feature of the NTSC-VIC and if you really want to go HDMI there a a lot of affordable converter boxes out there.

RAM-expansion: While the C64 is "ready to go" in the standard configuration the VIC-20 is pretty bare with its 5K RAM. Most users back then got a RAM-expansion very soon, long before anyone thought about getting a disk-drive. If you want to run all software you will bascially need a fully switchable RAM expansion (unless you want to use cumbersome POKEs). If you want to use ROM-image files this also involves write-protecting the areas after loading as some ROM-images use copy-protection to differentiate ROM from RAM and won't work in RAM. Useful RAM-expansions are becoming hard to get for the VIC-20. MegaCart is great but has something like a 2 year waiting-list. Final Expansion is available and even has an SD2IEC-drive on board, but this only comes as a kit you have to solder yourself. And it has some issues on NTSC-machines when using full 35K expansion (RAM at $0400 and $a400 will overwrite each other).

So ideally a new VIC-20 motherboard will come with S-Video out and a fully switchable RAM-expansion (separately available maybe).

[thecollector]

Definitely the VIC 20 reloaded would have S-Video out, without any further modifications required.

As for HDMI - there are indeed converter boxes for that and most modern AMPS will have appropriate SVIDEO to HDMI conversion built in for upscaling to a LCD/LED/Plasma TV.

Ram expansion idea is an interesting one and perhaps that is something that could be incorporated or as an option if desired.

[dragos]

It's funny, noone here can thinks there is a market for one, but he can't keep the c64 reloaded in stock. When we have had new case discussions over the last 10 years or so, everyone always said "There is too small a market" yet Dallas sold hundreds of new 64c cases. (and has people mad that he isn't making more fast enough.

The market is much larger than anyone realizes, if you thing all the retro guys out there go to expos and post on forums, you are deluding yourself. Ask Brain how many uiecs he sold, or how many 64nics (not counting the 150 NICS our club sold before Brain started selling them)

An I didn't pay anywhere near $300 for my 64 reloaded board from Jens....

[eslapion]

@Dragos:
I wish you good luck with your C64 reloaded.

Schönfeld knows a lot about digital technology and logic equations but he put completely aside some very important electrical aspects when creating that thing.

ALL Commodore 8 bit computers and drives are designed to communicate internally at TTL-LS levels and he used a bunch of HC chips which, by default, are NOT compatible with this type of signaling. CMOS chips designed for TTL-LS signaling are in the ACT and HCT families of logic chips.

When I told him he should not use this type of chip along with custom Commodore chips, he replied to me "Says who?"... its like written all over the Programmer's Reference Guide...

I just had a few chat with Ray Carlsen who noted original Commodore PLAs can generate negative spikes of up to 2V in amplitude (ranging between 4Vdc and 2Vdc). Normal TTL chips which have a logic threshold voltage at about 1.5Vdc will be insensitive to these "hash" as Ray calls them; not so with CMOS chips which trigger at about 2.5 volts.

Hello chaos...

[groepaz]

ah there we go with the FUD again....

there are absolutely zero "electrical problems" with that C64R board, except a few minor things that were present in the auction boards and that have been corrected since then.

It's funny, noone here can thinks there is a market for one, but he can't keep the c64 reloaded in stock

the problem are the custom chips - once you need to slaughter a working machine to populate a new board it becomes a lot less attractive to buy one that said, there will likely still be a second revision of the board that has zif sockets for all of them (including CIAs). we'll see