Wizard of Wor for VIC-20 FOUND!

ArugulaZ · Post by **ArugulaZ** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:32 pm

There are optimists and pessimists... and then there are realists. This has been conclusively proven as a fake.

Vic20-Ian · Post by **Vic20-Ian** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:50 pm

Good detective stuff, thanks for taking the trouble.

I agree, If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is in all likelihood a duck.

Blk 2/3 and the chip code = a big quack.

Unfortunately logic is sometimes not applied correctly.

If you have only ever seen a white swan, then you might state that all swans are white, until you see a black one.

Without a dump of this particular cartridge or running it with SYS32592 and finding an adventure, there will always be a question whether it could somehow have been produced as a small batch of test cartridges.

I have seen and heard many manufacturing oddities.

"All components has passed leak test"....... Observe leak test operator putting clearly leaking parts into good parts bin when green end of test light comes on.

I sent Fred a few ideas and recommendations to test it without risking his reputation on ebay by selling a mislabelled item and having it tested afterwards.

He seems a nice guy, nice conversation, I don't think he wants to upset anyone.

If after testing it is not WoW then I think he is also going to be disappointed like all of us.

However, it has been nice to think that WoW is out there waiting to be found.

Let's see what happens next, I hope he suspends the auction and tests it.

Vic20-Ian · Post by **Vic20-Ian** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:14 pm

ArugulaZ wrote:There are optimists and pessimists... and then there are realists. This has been conclusively proven as a fake.

See next post after yours.

It has not proven to be anything yet has it?

I have not seen the code or the cartridge run. I agree it does look likely but this "proof" would not stand up in court.

All chips I have seen with this number were adventure games

is not the same as

all chips of this number are adventure games

Not all swans are white.

errors can also occur in judging

e.g.

A person found not guilty may have actually committed the crime - False Negative

A person found guilty may in fact be innocent - False Positive

There are 2 other error free outcomes:

Truly Guilty and found Guilty and

Truly Innocent found not guilty

The funny thing is the difficulty to prove innocence.

The law does not pronounce innocence only Guilty or Not Guilty.

When someone is accused of a crime and is found not guilty, do we treat him as having proven his innocence?

Vic20-Ian · Post by **Vic20-Ian** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:25 pm

If this thread annoys you blame Henry Fonda

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGP219pF2lE

Boray · Post by **Boray** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:41 pm

Vic20-Ian wrote: All chips I have seen with this number were adventure games

is not the same as

all chips of this number are adventure games

So you think it's actually possible that Commodore by mistake manufactured a WoW prototype along with the adventure carts? Ehum... Anyway, that this cart is a fake does not necessarily mean that the seller is aware of it. He could have got it in this state when buying a lot of cartridges or something. But it sure seems likely that he IS aware of it.

Boray · Post by **Boray** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:01 pm

By the way, I will try to remember to ask Ian if he wants to buy my car the day it's too expensive to repair.

Boray · Post by **Boray** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:04 pm

I could say I think Jeff Minter once sat in it or something.

e5frog · Post by **e5frog** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:09 pm

According to Carlsson's list here posted today:
http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum ... t&p=289921

This chip/PCB is from a VIC-1918 Voodoo Castle.

Boxed set got no bids starting at $4.99:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/COMMODORE-VIC-2 ... 0639961353

Rip the PCB out and put labels on it.... $50 before it's even ended, seems like a good deal - as there will always be people that think "what if...".

If I was to put some doubt to this just being an ordinary cart I have once stumbled upon a chip in a Channel F cart that had two games in it. But I guess other carts with this same chip could have that code as well then.

English Invader · Post by **English Invader** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:13 pm

Here's another pearl of wisdom from Carlsson that was posted by someone else on Lemon:

{Carlsson}
"Besides, it was noted that the cartridge in the auction is wired up to such ROM banks that it won't autostart. That is perfectly fine for Basic extensions and Scott Adams' text adventures, but most action games would be wired to $A000 so you don't have to SYS xxxxx in order to start the game."

6502dude · Post by **6502dude** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:13 pm

I went through my box of Vic-20 cart PCBs tonight and confirmed / added additional MOS Rom numbers to this listing:

MOS ROM Number Cartridge Name Cart ID
------------------------------------------------------------------------
325315-01 Programmers Aid Cartridge Vic-1212
325316-01 Machine Language Monitor Vic-1213
325310-02 Avenger (Vic Avenger) Vic-1901
325304-02 Star Battle Vic-1902
325312-01 (also rev 02) Slot (Super Slot) Vic-1904
325307-02 Jelly Monsters Vic-1905
325306-01 (also Rev 02) Alien (Super Alien) Vic-1906
325308-01 (also Rev 02) Jupiter Lander Vic-1907
325311-01 (also Rev 02) Poker (Draw Poker) Vic-1908
325309-02 Midnight Drive (Road Race) Vic-1909
901252-01 Radar Rat Race Vic-1910
901266-01 The Sky Is Falling VIC-1911
901264-01 Mole Attack VIC-1912
901270-01 Raid on Fort Knox VIC-1913
325335-01 or 901254-01 + 901255-01 Adventure Land VIC-1914
325336-01 or 901256-01 + 901257-01 Pirate's Cove VIC-1915
325337-01 or 901258-01 + 901259-01 Mission Impossible VIC-1916
325339-01 or 901262-01 + 901263-01 The Count VIC-1917
325338-01 or 901260-01 + 901261-01 Voodoo Castle VIC-1918
901253-01 Sargon II Chess VIC-1919
901271-01 + 901272-01 (also Rev 02) Pinball Spectacular VIC-1920
901265-01 Super Smash VIC-1921
901273-01 Cosmic Cruncher VIC-1922
901280-01 Gorf VIC-1923
901269-01 Omega Race VIC-1924
901279-01 Money Wars VIC-1925
901281-01 Menagerie VIC-1926
901283-01 Cosmic Jailbreak VIC-1927
901284-01 Home Babysitter VIC-1928
901290-01 Personal Finance VIC-1929
901285-01 Visible Solar System VIC-1930
901277-01 Clowns VIC-1931
901282-01 Garden Wars VIC-1932
901274-01 Speed Math & Bingo Math VIC-1933
325343-01 Commodore Artist VIC-1935
901278-01 Sea Wolf VIC-1937
901303-01 Tooth Invaders VIC-1938
901292-01 Star Post VIC-1939

It can be downloaded in .xlsx format from:
http://www.6502dude.com/cbm/vic20/carts ... mbers.xlsx

Hopefully this will help identify suspect cartridges in the future.

Vic20-Ian · Post by **Vic20-Ian** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:41 pm

Boray wrote:By the way, I will try to remember to ask Ian if he wants to buy my car the day it's too expensive to repair.

Thanks, I already own an old Fiat

Vic20-Ian · Post by **Vic20-Ian** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:42 pm

Nice work. Thank you.

6502dude wrote:I went through my box of Vic-20 cart PCBs tonight and confirmed / added additional MOS Rom numbers to this listing:

MOS ROM Number Cartridge Name Cart ID
------------------------------------------------------------------------
325315-01 Programmers Aid Cartridge Vic-1212
325316-01 Machine Language Monitor Vic-1213
325310-02 Avenger (Vic Avenger) Vic-1901
325304-02 Star Battle Vic-1902
325312-01 (also rev 02) Slot (Super Slot) Vic-1904
325307-02 Jelly Monsters Vic-1905
325306-01 (also Rev 02) Alien (Super Alien) Vic-1906
325308-01 (also Rev 02) Jupiter Lander Vic-1907
325311-01 (also Rev 02) Poker (Draw Poker) Vic-1908
325309-02 Midnight Drive (Road Race) Vic-1909
901252-01 Radar Rat Race Vic-1910
901266-01 The Sky Is Falling VIC-1911
901264-01 Mole Attack VIC-1912
901270-01 Raid on Fort Knox VIC-1913
325335-01 or 901254-01 + 901255-01 Adventure Land VIC-1914
325336-01 or 901256-01 + 901257-01 Pirate's Cove VIC-1915
325337-01 or 901258-01 + 901259-01 Mission Impossible VIC-1916
325339-01 or 901262-01 + 901263-01 The Count VIC-1917
325338-01 or 901260-01 + 901261-01 Voodoo Castle VIC-1918
901253-01 Sargon II Chess VIC-1919
901271-01 + 901272-01 (also Rev 02) Pinball Spectacular VIC-1920
901265-01 Super Smash VIC-1921
901273-01 Cosmic Cruncher VIC-1922
901280-01 Gorf VIC-1923
901269-01 Omega Race VIC-1924
901279-01 Money Wars VIC-1925
901281-01 Menagerie VIC-1926
901283-01 Cosmic Jailbreak VIC-1927
901284-01 Home Babysitter VIC-1928
901290-01 Personal Finance VIC-1929
901285-01 Visible Solar System VIC-1930
901277-01 Clowns VIC-1931
901282-01 Garden Wars VIC-1932
901274-01 Speed Math & Bingo Math VIC-1933
325343-01 Commodore Artist VIC-1935
901278-01 Sea Wolf VIC-1937
901303-01 Tooth Invaders VIC-1938
901292-01 Star Post VIC-1939

It can be downloaded in .xlsx format from:
http://www.6502dude.com/cbm/vic20/carts ... mbers.xlsx

Hopefully this will help identify suspect cartridges in the future.

Vic20-Ian · Post by **Vic20-Ian** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:48 pm

e5frog wrote:
If I was to put some doubt to this just being an ordinary cart I have once stumbled upon a chip in a Channel F cart that had two games in it. But I guess other carts with this same chip could have that code as well then.

Until you run the cart you can't know 100%, but it is unlikely to be WoW with that chip or cart configuration.

My main point here was that some logic some people apply and some behaviours on this forum are very negative about this.

I emailed Fred and have offered to help and prove with data and also because I would like to get someone interested in the Vic to get involved in Denial again.

Vic20-Ian · Post by **Vic20-Ian** » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:11 pm

Boray wrote:
Vic20-Ian wrote: All chips I have seen with this number were adventure games

is not the same as

all chips of this number are adventure games
So you think it's actually possible that Commodore by mistake manufactured a WoW prototype along with the adventure carts? Ehum... Anyway, that this cart is a fake does not necessarily mean that the seller is aware of it. He could have got it in this state when buying a lot of cartridges or something. But it sure seems likely that he IS aware of it.

No Bo I don't think that.

I am not privy to the manufacturing process or the use of chips in 1980-1984 at Commodore.

Did commodore ever make manufacturing mistakes - possibly

Did they ever experiment / repurpose chips - surely

Loading a new bit of code, running it through chip manufacturing without changing labelling are all possible things a dev team can do in a factory even if it is bad quality process adherence.

Did they ever make a prototype WoW - I hope so

Did it survive - I hope so

Is it found now - I have my doubts, lots of conjecture, evidence it may be to the contrary but no proof yet.

I may have seen all the lists of white swans but I am not going to say all swans are not black.

I believe Fred's story of acquisition until he tells me different. I reached out a hand of friendship to help him, I though that was what Denial was about.

pallas · Post by **pallas** » Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:53 am

Vic20-Ian wrote: Until you run the cart you can't know 100%, but it is unlikely to be WoW with that chip or cart configuration.

My main point here was that some logic some people apply and some behaviours on this forum are very negative about this.

I emailed Fred and have offered to help and prove with data and also because I would like to get someone interested in the Vic to get involved in Denial again.

I don't think I'm a negative person, I always try to be helpful and positive.
But I'm a rational guy for sure, so I ponder the possibilities and, if I believe something is 99% "negative", I say it is

In this case, I believe it's not a WoW cart and so I do say.