MiniGame Compo 2009 ?

Discuss anything related to the VIC
English Invader
Vic 20 Scientist
Posts: 1193
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:51 pm

Post by English Invader »

Ten Ten is exactly the sort of game that people of all ages and backgrounds like to play. It's not my cup of tea, but it has the appeal of Snake or Solitare.
carlsson
Class of '6502
Posts: 5516
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:41 am

Post by carlsson »

gklinger wrote:P.S. What's the deal with a judge having an entry?
Golan and others, how many times do I need to repeat myself? There is no such thing as "judges" or a "jury" in the MiniGame Compo. Anyone can participate in both the compo and voting. All it takes is to download the games, give them an honest play through and submit your votes. This past year the admins have shifted from web forms to email to ensure no partially blank vote forms were handed in.

There has been a rule of honour not to cast a vote on your own games. Since every game can get a score from 0 to 10 or thereabouts, in theory one could give your own games a "5" which would be in the average, but best is of course to avoid at all. When it comes to games by others, there is no such rule of honour and frankly if participants would not have been allowed to vote, quite possibly there had not been a single set of results from the past MiniGame Compos. This is because back in the day, mainly those involved in the compo themselves were motivated to play through and cast votes.

Of course things may change in the future. As posted, I'm planning to revive the site. There has been a bit of suspicious voting previously, but it has most probably come from outsiders, i.e. those who don't participate. If anything, chances are that participants' votes (e.g. Jeff-20 in this case) would count for more than other people's lazy votes.
Anders Carlsson

Image Image Image Image Image
gklinger
Vic 20 Elite
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:39 am

Post by gklinger »

Okay but I still think those comments are stupid. "Lack of graphics"? It's a puzzler. What does he want, a first-person puzzler with rendered graphics? As then we have Ola Andersson saying, "I don't know why I would play it more than once." It's a puzzler! The replayability is that it's challenging and mentally stimulating. I can't say either about his entry which, to be reciprocally rude, I wish I hadn't played once. At least Jeff-20's entry was original.

Sorry for being such a jerk about this but I really like Ten Ten so I tend to get a bit worked up. :oops:
In the end it will be as if nothing ever happened.
TBCVIC
Vic 20 Hobbyist
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 am

Post by TBCVIC »

The reason I don't feel like playing Ten Ten again is maybe because puzzle games just isn't for me. It feels like work and you don't get any reward other than more work. That said, I really like the game's look and it IS very original and clever.

I'm sorry to hear you didn't like Photon, I really like shoot 'em ups and often found myself playing Photon more than I needed to (to debug and test) during development. I thought I would atleast get some constructive critisism from the judges, but I only got two comments and neither was very illuminating.
Ola Andersson
Image
carlsson
Class of '6502
Posts: 5516
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:41 am

Post by carlsson »

Perhaps it would be a good idea to publish voters' comments anonymously next year so outsiders don't get the chance to hang particular voters. It seems much easier to criticize than participate, even if participation only consists of playing a half dozen different games, make up your mind and in this case send away one email. :roll:
Anders Carlsson

Image Image Image Image Image
gklinger
Vic 20 Elite
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:39 am

Post by gklinger »

TBCVIC wrote:The reason I don't feel like playing Ten Ten again is maybe because puzzle games just isn't for me. It feels like work and you don't get any reward other than more work.
I guess feel the same way about shoot 'em ups. I don't think Photon is a bad game; I'm just not a not a big fan of the genre.
I thought I would atleast get some constructive critisism from the judges, but I only got two comments and neither was very illuminating.
Since you went to the trouble of writing Photon, guess I owe you more than snarky comments so here are my thoughts on the game...

First off, I didn't hate Photon. It reminded me of Gyruss because the enemies follow a pattern and I prefer that because I suck at shoot 'em ups. Predictable enemies gives me a chance to progress as I learn what to expect. I also like that enemy fire is targeted rather than just raining down randomly. It makes it a little easier to avoid bullets and getting killed by random bullets frustrates me so much that I often give up on games because of it. The targeted fire also forced me to be more strategic about not only where I was but where I would be. That alone made Photon more interesting than a lot of similar games. I tried hiding from fire in the upper corners but I see you anticipated that sneaky trick.

I like that there was a sound when I got hit by a bullet. It's helpful since the game uses a metered shield rather than a get hit and die arrangement. I really liked that you let the player shoot off a barrage of four bullets at a time. Because of the choreographed enemies I found myself trying not only to get further in the game but to use the least number of bullets possible. Shooting in advance knowing that an enemy will appear and then having him get hit is immensely satisfying.

Suggestion-wise, I can think of a few minor things. It's hard to gauge the level of the shield. Do you think you could make it green when it's between 70 and 100%, orange between 40 and 70%, red when between 10 and 40% and flashing red when between 1 to 10%? Being able to gauge how much shield is left with a glance would help. It would also be nice if you could speed up the player movement just a little (admittedly this suggestion is because of my lack of skill and may not be necessary for others). You might also want to consider keeping track of how many bullets a player shoots or their shot to hit ratio or something. I find that multiple scoring aspects encourage me to keep playing. Last but not least, would it be possible to have multi-coloured player and enemy graphics? The monotone green and red are kind of one-dimensional. :(

I don't know how much memory you have to play with so these suggestions might not be implementable. I'm going to give the game another go tonight to refresh my memory about it and if I think of anything, I'll let you know.

And again, sorry for being so grouchy. I do appreciate the efforts you and all the other entrants made.
In the end it will be as if nothing ever happened.
TBCVIC
Vic 20 Hobbyist
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 am

Post by TBCVIC »

gklinger wrote: I guess feel the same way about shoot 'em ups. I don't think Photon is a bad game; I'm just not a not a big fan of the genre.

First off, I didn't hate Photon. It reminded me of Gyruss because the enemies follow a pattern and I prefer that because I suck at shoot 'em ups. Predictable enemies gives me a chance to progress as I learn what to expect.
That's exactly how I feel too. I want to be able to learn and get further and further until I can complete the whole game. I don't like how the "pay again to continue" became sort of a standard in Arcades.
gklinger wrote: I also like that enemy fire is targeted rather than just raining down randomly. It makes it a little easier to avoid bullets and getting killed by random bullets frustrates me so much that I often give up on games because of it. The targeted fire also forced me to be more strategic about not only where I was but where I would be. That alone made Photon more interesting than a lot of similar games. I tried hiding from fire in the upper corners but I see you anticipated that sneaky trick.
Hehe, got you! :) I tested the game Space Hunter on Colecovision that one judge mentioned, there you could just stand in one corner for the first couple of levels.
gklinger wrote: I like that there was a sound when I got hit by a bullet. It's helpful since the game uses a metered shield rather than a get hit and die arrangement. I really liked that you let the player shoot off a barrage of four bullets at a time.
You'll get up to eight bullets after you've picked up some power-ups.
gklinger wrote: Suggestion-wise, I can think of a few minor things. It's hard to gauge the level of the shield. Do you think you could make it green when it's between 70 and 100%, orange between 40 and 70%, red when between 10 and 40% and flashing red when between 1 to 10%? Being able to gauge how much shield is left with a glance would help.
That's a great idea, thanks!
gklinger wrote: It would also be nice if you could speed up the player movement just a little (admittedly this suggestion is because of my lack of skill and may not be necessary for others). You might also want to consider keeping track of how many bullets a player shoots or their shot to hit ratio or something. I find that multiple scoring aspects encourage me to keep playing. Last but not least, would it be possible to have multi-coloured player and enemy graphics? The monotone green and red are kind of one-dimensional. :(
Yeah, I know the game is a little sluggish in the beginning, it's one mistake I'm not going to make again. Shot hit ratio could be fun ofc.
About multi-colour, this is a MSX problem since the sprites are only monochrome. I could use a few on top of eachother but you can only have four sprites per line. I think I would use softsprites if I'm making a sequel. Also, I'm crap at doing graphics, I'd hire someone, but for the contest I really wanted to do it all myself.
gklinger wrote: I don't know how much memory you have to play with so these suggestions might not be implementable. I'm going to give the game another go tonight to refresh my memory about it and if I think of anything, I'll let you know.

And again, sorry for being so grouchy. I do appreciate the efforts you and all the other entrants made.
Any additions to the game would have to be for a 8K version, since I've optimised for space so many times it's not funny. A "Photon II" 8K cartridge for Sord M5 is planned. Thanks for taking the time writing your thoughts and for the suggestions.
Ola Andersson
Image
gklinger
Vic 20 Elite
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:39 am

Post by gklinger »

TBCVIC wrote:I want to be able to learn and get further and further until I can complete the whole game. I don't like how the "pay again to continue" became sort of a standard in Arcades.
Yes! Reward a person for making an effort to learn and improve rather than having a pocketful of quarters. I suppose that programmers of arcade games had to keep in mind that the ultimate goal for their games was to earn more money so unlimited continues do make sense from a business standpoint.
I tested the game Space Hunter on Colecovision that one judge mentioned, there you could just stand in one corner for the first couple of levels.
Not that I want to start knocking another game but I preferred Photon to Space Hunter (and I'm a big Colecovision nut so I'm biased towards Colecovision games).
You'll get up to eight bullets after you've picked up some power-ups.
Ah, there's another good reason for me to keep playing. I'm not usually able to get over to catch those powerups. I'm going to have to make a mental note to stick to the middle of the screen when I'm not engaging enemies on either side.
About multi-colour, this is a MSX problem since the sprites are only monochrome.
Can't fault you for that then.
Also, I'm crap at doing graphics, I'd hire someone, but for the contest I really wanted to do it all myself.
Understandable (I can't do graphics either). If you decide to do a sequel you should talk to saehn. He's a hell of an artist and he seems to enjoy experimenting on different platforms so maybe he would be interested in working with you.
In the end it will be as if nothing ever happened.
TBCVIC
Vic 20 Hobbyist
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:38 am

Post by TBCVIC »

Another tip, the powerups comes every 50 points, so you kinda know when to expect them.
Ola Andersson
Image
User avatar
Jeff-20
Denial Founder
Posts: 5759
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm

Post by Jeff-20 »

I finally win a rank in the contest, and I attempt to return to the page today for a quick ego boost -- and nothing! Site down for construction. I can't even link someone if I need to brag. :lol:

Interesting though, I discovered this video of all of the 4k entries.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgeUcfGG7eo

Not sure mine deserved first, but I did notice something interesting. It is very difficult to watch someone else play Ten Ten. Maybe everyone's brain works differently, but after the Chicago ECCC expo and watching Quirk's video, I realized I get confused when a player moves in a way I didn't expect. It's difficult for my brain to re-plot a new course. :? strange.
High Scores, Links, and Jeff's Basic Games page.
carlsson
Class of '6502
Posts: 5516
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:41 am

Post by carlsson »

Yeah, sorry. I have received all (?) the vital files from RoboNES. His hosting expired pretty soon after the compo ended and I was not ready to take over the contract. I am still on track to set up a new site later this year. Ideally it should already have been done, but spending on average 11 hours per day at work doesn't help.
Anders Carlsson

Image Image Image Image Image
saehn
Vic 20 Devotee
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:22 pm

Post by saehn »

Jeff-20 wrote:I finally win a rank in the contest, and I attempt to return to the page today for a quick ego boost -- and nothing! Site down for construction. I can't even link someone if I need to brag. :lol:

Interesting though, I discovered this video of all of the 4k entries.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgeUcfGG7eo

Not sure mine deserved first, but I did notice something interesting. It is very difficult to watch someone else play Ten Ten. Maybe everyone's brain works differently, but after the Chicago ECCC expo and watching Quirk's video, I realized I get confused when a player moves in a way I didn't expect. It's difficult for my brain to re-plot a new course. :? strange.
Congrats! Yeah, I see what you mean. I'm not the best TenTen player in the world, but watching the third stage in the youtube video was painful! :-D
User avatar
Ghislain
Realms of Quest
Posts: 1279
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:54 am

Post by Ghislain »

Jeff-20 wrote:I think I'm done with MiniGame. I always feel like the winner is going to be the best clone of Tetris or Pacman or something.

I don't mean to sound negative. The comments suggest each reviewer only spends a few seconds with each game and only plays it once. That's how most retro gamers including myself take in any game now. When's the last time you sat in front of your Atari VCS for hours exploring one cartridge? Without full immersion or multiple plays, it's easier to appreciate more familiar concepts, something you can get in 5 seconds because you played it before. I would be shocked if any reviewer actually played beyond one life or one level of any of these game entries.

Games popular in the retro community are based on nostalgia. When we were kids we took time to get to know a game. If pacman had been released now as a homebrew, it would be criticized as needlessly complex and maybe even too abstract in premise. Atari's much praised Adventure, as a contemporary release, would probably have lost our attention at the first blocky screen. Nostalgia and hype influence our positive memories, but games may never be evaluated the way they were...

The secret to making a good contemporary homebrew (or doing well in a contest like this) is taking something very familiar and very popular, like Boulderdash or Galaxian and remaking it for an unexpected platform. There's definitely and aesthetic for such things, but I don't think I'm very good at that. Don't get me wrong. I support the contest and think ideas like this are great for programmers. I really wish more would enter.
Congratulations on winning first place. I remember winning second place in '06 and it was a big thrill for me at the time.

I agree with your comments regarding the shorter attention span of retro gamers today. I too am guilty of this. I think this is mostly caused by how easily accessible gaming has become (emulation, handheld devices that run emulators, etc). We have increased our game library a hundred fold (when we were kids, we only had a handful of games).

I recall my first Minigame entry, Dunjon II. It got a fairly negative reception at the time, one of the comments was pretty amusing:
"Less interesting in 4k than 1k whack on the same machine !"
Now, I agree that Whack was the superior game, but D2 was closer to the tradition of 1970s games like Telengard and Moria . It was a complete simulation of traditional D&D -- roll a character with the 6 classic stats, step out of the inn and do some dungeon crawling. On top of that, there is a variety of monsters, treasure, magic items, etc. There is no way that this can be done in 1K (if someone can prove me wrong, I'll tip my hat to them).
"A slave is one who waits for someone to come and free him." -- Ezra Pound
Post Reply